General Chat

Does it really matter where the good ideas come from.....Conservative, Labour or Liberal etc.? While political parties continue to take potshots at each other simply to score points, we'll never get anywhere.

The good thing about the coalition is that for once the liberal minded who have previously adopted a "laissez-faire" attitude and have actually blocked Parliamentary attempts to make society more responsible, are now themselves jointly responsible for running the country.

And, PLEASE, can we once and for all dispel the urban myth that only the Labour party and left wingers care about our country.

i think if they got rid of the police at the top of the pile
they could easy save enough for those on the beat
we need more police on the street been seen to be doing something



as for Cameron i am still giving him a chance early days yet

Absolutely JBA. One of the worst things the police managers did was to remove police from patrolling the streets and put them all in squad cars. There are several side streets and alleyways where by the time the patrol car arrives, the perpetrators have "legged it" over the wall and away. Keep the cars for motorway and main road traffic policing and use the bobbies on the beat to provide a visible presence. That way, they may stand a chance of deterring crime rather than always being on the back foot. I'm sure in the end it would actually be more cost effective than having to repair or replace cars.

I think today the police need protection from guns,knifes and personal assults while carrying out their duties to protect joe public,visual presence doesnt always deter,no fear of the law in some areas.

I wouldnt like to be a beat police person in an area known for weapon crime and neither would I like to have a family member walking the beat.

Don't know why knickers are getting in a twist over this:

Mr Bratton is no stranger to UK policing, having teamed up with British officers at other times over the past 20 years.

In 2009, the Queen awarded him the honorary title of Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.

Sue (a Tory)

I think knickers are getting in a twist over it Sue, because DC is trying to take credit for something he hasn't done re policing (EDIT ...of the riots) ...and is now trying to look as if he is 'doing something'.

Bringing in an 'expert' from somewhere else is fine, providing
all the relevant parties are involved in the discussions, but it seems police chiefs feel he is going over their heads and is not listening to 'the experts' at home.

Rose (not a Tory ;-) )

I'm not getting knickers in a twist over Bratton coming over here to advise. I'd just like to have seen Cameron listen to our own police first. It's quite probably that they would be able to tell him more than Bratton would about our own problems.

I think it's great that lots of people around the world are willing to put their ideas forward to help us fight crime, and Bratton's record speaks for itself.

The point of the thread is not the fact that Bratton is coming over to advise. :-)

He has been invited to advise the government on the control of gangs. I don't think that is a bad thing, especially as the gangs have grown more powerful over the years without any intervention. Its good that David Cameron is showing some leadership.

Vera

Cameron just can't win - he was the individual criticised for not taking firmer control at the start of the rioting - he's on the defensive.

He's also in the forces' sights re the proposed cuts.

He also has a Home Secretary who has trouble communicating effectively.

Goodness knows how many consultations have been held re lawlessness,community policing,youth policy etc., etc., over the past decades nothing moves forward when we have the Lords sticking their beaks in.

Sue

“If the police in 1997 had been pulled back from the assertive policing, the community-based policing could have reduced crime and disorder and improved race relations. Instead we have the situations we find ourselves in now.”

A quote from William Bratton - not sure that's what Cameron will want to hear.

Gwynne

This is well worth a read, right from the front line, and the human effect it has had on our police. I don't think Cameron will want to hear this either, but maybe that's why he's not talking directly to police.

http://wintsays.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/thank-you/

Well worth reading and it made me cry to be honest.

Guinevere, seeing as how Tony Blair was in power in 1997 I should think that comment would do David Cameron no harm at all.

As I've said before, whatever happened to Blair's mantra "Tough on Crime, Tough on the Causes of Crime?" and what punishment did his own son receive when he was found in Leicester Square lying flat on his face drunk?

When me and my husband was in Singapore the PMs son was community work because he thown paper on the ground could not believe it, but I think the goverment have got to look at the human rights bill again and amend it. Mrs Blair made a mint out of that and untill we get that right things wont change.

That woman who might be evicted from her council flat is already sprouding her human rights.

You seem to have misunderstood my point, Pauline. Bratton was talking about a situation in the USA and his view was that assertive policing (such as happened here after the riots and claimed as a victory by Cameron) is counter-productive long term.

His view is that community policing is the long term solution - not what The Tories want to hear right now.

The quote is nothing at all to do with Blair in 1997.

Gwynne

I think you have missed my point Guinevere (and my name's not Pauline by the way).

Surely even the community police have to be assertive otherwise what is the point of having any police at all? If it is against the law to,say, drive while using a mobile phone and the police (community or otherwise) see someone doing this they ought to be assertive and stop it.

If the police are not allowed to be assertive, then more estates will become "no go" areas.

It is possible to be assertive without being aggressive and the two should not be confused.

i think its still early days for Cameron
he is still trying to put right the mess the labour government left behind
he is doing the best
i also wonder if labour would of tryed to continue
to sweep that mess under the carpet as it did whilst in government
if they had won the last election i dread to think :-(

Hi Pamela (sorry for the mistake before), I thought you'd misunderstood my point because you mentioned Tony Blair was in power in 1997 in response to my first post. I replied that he had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was talking about the USA and Britton's actions there in 1997.

I also didn't mention anything about the police being assertive or aggressive (I do know there is a difference) what I said was that Britton's belief is that community policing is the long term solution to violence in the inner cities. Community policing is expensive and Cameron is intent on cutting police funding, although a lot of people in his own party don't think that's a good idea either it has emerged in recent days.

I also believe our own police probably have a better idea of how to solve problems in the UK than Britton, as several high ranking officers said yesterday

Gwynne

Ah but you did mention assertive policing Guinevere....you opened your comments by quoting "if the police had been pulled back from assertive policing" etc. etc.

Ah, but Pamela, I thought we'd agreed they were Britton's words and not mine. I opened my post quoting what Britton said, no comment from me about whether or not I agreed with him, just a straight quote from the man himself

My point was and still is that Britton will be saying things that Cameron may not want to hear.

That's the point I tried to bring to the discussion and have been misunderstood twice. This is becoming tedious, so I'll leave it there.

Re the woman who is being evicted...is it her fault that her adult son has commited a crime? arguable... it certainly isn't her younger child's fault and she may be the one made to suffer.

Isn't the point that ( much as I hate to quote DC) "if you're old enough to commit the crime you're old enough to receive the punishment" ie YOU, not anyone else taking responsibilty for your actions... isn't that why a lot get into trouble in the first place? that 'someone else' can always be blamed?