General Chat

Don't know if anyone else has put this site up, but it's a damn good place to put it into perspective:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/bully.htm#Why

Coincidentally, just found this on our local newspaper on line.

You're Fired - the inside track on dismissals


Increasing numbers of workers are taking their former employers to tribunals, accusing them of unfair treatment and failing to follow the correct protocols. Photo: James Bass.
SAM WILLIAMS
17 June 2009 13:00



With many companies struggling to make ends meet, getting rid of staff can be the only way to stave off administrators. But sometimes bosses fail to follow due process or treat their workers fairly. SAM WILLIAMS reports on a rise in unfair dismissal claims.

In times of recession, many companies hit by lower incomes are forced to consider reducing their staff to make ends meet.

But rising numbers of workers are taking their former employers to tribunals accusing them of not following protocols and unfair treatment.

Nationally the number of employment tribunals over redundancies are up 65pc over last year, with claims related to unpaid redundancy pay up 26pc. Unfair dismissal claims were also up 11pc.

And the trend appears to be reflected in the city.

Gordon Dean, partner at Gordon Dean Solicitors on Magdalen Street in Norwich, which also has offices in Church Plain Yarmouth, said: “We have seen a significant increase in inquiries, including a big increase in redundancy claims and withholding wages, in which employees don't get their last week's or month's wages.

“A lot of that is going on. Employers are not paying people when they lay them off. It's fairly nasty out there.

“More people are being made redundant in the recession, particularly in retail. Lots of shops are laying people off. Professional services firms are also laying people off in large numbers and legal companies, accountants and architects, building surveyors and banks.

“It's going to get worse. We haven't had the GCSE or college or university students finishing their courses and looking for jobs when there won't be any. It's going to be very difficult and I can see unemployment shooting up in the autumn.”

Often, Mr Dean said, problems are associated with companies failing to recognise the entitlements their workers have under employment law - and the most common offenders are smaller companies.

He added: “Very often employers fail to recognise that everyone is entitled to one week's pay unless it is for gross misconduct.

“Lots of smaller employers think they can lay people off and say don't come in tomorrow, end of story.

“But of course that's not the end of the story, they need to give a week's pay.

“Bigger firms tend to have employment personnel resources and tend to know what the rules are and they go through the motions.

“They say they have no choice but to make redundancies and take another month doing that.”

But with some employers desperate to save money and reduce their staff headcount, Mr Dean said many workers were being sacked on flimsy grounds - leading to more claims for unfair dismissal.

He added: “People are getting dismissed much more easily than they used to. We are seeing people laid off because they are ill, or things like having a broken leg, which is very bad practice and in some cases comes very close to disability discrimination.

“People are also being dismissed on allegations of dishonesty. One person was laid off by a supermarket for eating a chocolate bar at work and not paying for it. On this occasion he had forgotten to pay, despite having paid every other time.

A lot of people are also being dismissed on false grounds, such as bus drivers accused of driving badly just because a member of public thinks they were driving too fast, even though most drivers will get some complaint against them at some time, or care workers when somebody grumbles that they have been rude when there probably isn't a care worker in the country who has not had a complaint made against them.

“When in the past they would have just been asked to apologise or be more polite, these days they just get the sack. People are looking to cut costs and lay off staff.”

Another trick cash-strapped companies may employ when staff leave is to hold back their pay.

Employers may delay paying for several months, knowing they will not be forced to pay up at a tribunal for at least three months.

While the practice may help ease firms' cash-flow problems it can cause serious problems for those out of work with bills to pay.

Mr Dean added: “Companies can delay payment for three months and there is nothing the former employee can do. The employers know they will have to pay but they delay it as long as they can.

“It's very rough on people who have been dismissed and are worried about paying their bills and their mortgages, and it is very difficult to get a job.”

But he said workers do have means to challenge decisions they find unfair and many companies do look after their staff and ensure they are treated fairly.

He added: “At least employees do have recourse to employment tribunals. It may take months, the law is slow, but eventually an employment judge will try to see that justice is done.

“And of course good employers, including many of the older firms, do manage their staff very well. Really good firms treat their staff like family. It is mostly cowboys who think they can behave like outlaws.”





An employee who suffered stress after being forced to work up to 20 hours a day at an electronics firm is suing for breach of contract.

David*, who was in a managerial position in the Norfolk firm, said the demands put on him by his employers increased over several years and he ended up working extremely long days with only a few hours rest while working on deals with customers, some of which involved long hours travelling.

He said the work left him unable to spend time with his family and despite raising the issues with his bosses no action was taken to lighten his work load.

One day he walked out after being pushed too far. He went to his doctor and was signed off with stress.

He said: “Other companies will have a team of people to do the work I was expected to do. The work load got more and more and the working environment got unbearable.”

A dispute following about 15 redundancies at a furniture company led to one member of staff being physically attacked by the managing director.

James*, who had worked at the firm for just over a year, was half way through his notice period after being laid off when he was assaulted by the owner and director.

The employee, a father-of-three, said: “One day the managing director came up shouting and swearing at everybody, he was really going for it and accusing staff of stealing money from the company.

“I turned around and said you can't talk to me like that, and he grabbed me by the throat and started throwing me all over the place. I was told to leave the premises.”

He demanded the director be fired, according to company policy, but says his calls were ignored, and former colleagues who witnessed the alleged attack did not submit statements, which James believes is because they were afraid of being sacked.

And he said his bosses failed to follow the correct procedure in the redundancy process.

He added: “I was never approached about the timescales involved in the redundancy process or offered alternative employment within the company.

“They have lied to me and haven't followed procedures and now they have closed ranks against me. They have behaved outrageously.

“This has really badly affected me and my family. I am now in debt.”

A Norfolk driver was forced to leave work with depression after claims he was bullied by a former colleague.

Derek*, an experienced transport worker, says his life was made a living hell after suffering months of abuse by a fellow member of staff, and said he was forced to drive vehicles that were not fit to drive.

He says safety checks were not conducted and the buses were often filthy, and sometimes pets were allowed on the buses in breach of the rules.

Despite raising the issues with his employers he claims they did not take action to prevent the bullying and safety and cleanliness problems and was told by his doctors not to return to work if he wanted to recover.

He is now planning to take his former company to an employment tribunal for whistle-blowing and breach of contract.

He says the depression has affected him so badly he is now not in a safe state to drive.

He said: “My livelihood has been ruined and it has really screwed me up.”





Unfair dismissal

Dismissal where there is no fair reason for doing so, where correct processes were not followed or where a member of staff is dismissed for an automatically unfair reasons, such as taking maternity leave.

Failing to give a fair reason for redundancy is also a form of unfair dismissal.



Constructive dismissal

When an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employers' conduct.

To prove constructive dismissal, former employees need to prove their bosses committed a serious breach of contract, that they felt forced to leave because of that breach and that the worker has not done anything to suggest they have accepted the breach in conditions.

For more information on employee and employer rights visit government website www.direct.gov.uk

I had a different kind of "bullying". When I was in my fifties, a very attractive 22 y.o. had a 'thing' about older people and used to whisper to others and let me see that she was talking about me. She also said nasty things about my older friends in other departments. The others liked me and looked embarrassed, but she had some kind of a 'hold' over them so they just hung their heads. I didn't bite at anything she said (which annoyed her).

Many times, I thought of leaving, but each time I would think "If I left this week, come next pay-day, she will still get her pay, and I won't be here to get anything". The idea of me 'paying' to leave didn't sit well and I stuck it out. I also had my ten year anniversary coming up and that, too, would affect my pay - so I stayed and ignored her. She eventually left before I did and I stayed for as long as it suited ME!

Morning Colin,

Sorry to hear you are having problems at your place of work.

In the early seventies I was bullied by one of the Director that I worked for and as a result developed a stomach ulcer. Those days we were going through another economical crises and everyone hung on to their jobs tooth and nail, regardless of the working conditions. There was no protection from your bosses like there is today.

All these years later I still have horrid nightmares about that woman, who is long gone in life but not in my brain.

Take care!

Lindy xx



Lindy

I am sorry for you Colin, especially as jobs are hard to come by these days. As one of the older generation, I had the privalege of looking for other work, finding it, and then just going in and saying I am leaving tomorrow, as I dont like how such and such is done. If they said work a weeks notice, I said no , you have not looked after me, I am not bothering about you.

I think this happened about three times in my working life of 50 years.

One job the Manager was so very nasty, but I then heard he was dismissed afterwards, and they asked me to go back, but I was happy in the job I found.

The last job I had, I was not able to park, and no transport was laid on to bring us from another district, where it meant getting on three buses, so I just left. Was asked to go back with parking a couple of months later, but was quite happy then staying at home as I was of retirement age.

Mo

So much helpful information and words of support - thank you all so much.
Its nice just knowing I'm not the first to suffer from this.
Have asked HR for a copy of the company policy on stress and they looked a little on the worried side as they handed me the leaflet. But at least they now know officially that I am far from happy

Sorry to hear your story, but this is happening more and more, sadly in well known companies and in public office too.

I strongly beleive it is a reaction to the anti-discrimination legislation brought in by this government which has backfired on the people it was supposed to help.

I worked for a well known B Bank for allmost 40 years when I was subject to the same a few years ago. I was increasingly asked to undertake tasks that were more suited to a much younger person then was criticised for my performance. Age, of course had nothing to do with it, officially, ha, ha.

Their other trick, which was actually condoned by HR who issued secret clandestine instructions how to do this to their managers, was to try and wear you down to the point where you threw in the towel.

The last thing you should do is to go off sick with a stress related complaint. Barclays (oops) Bank saw this as an opportunity to commence exit procedures. They do this by claiming that you have failed your performance targets - which technically you have as you have been absent from work - usually after about six months of sick leave, and then invoke disciplinary action which inevitably results in dismissal.

Fortunately I was lucky in some respects as I was able to leave after 37 years with a redundancy package which nearly made up for the loss in my pension for leaving early.

Is there anyone at a relatively senior level that you can confide in and ask for advice and what, realistically, your future and possible options with this company is?

Thank you so much for all your advice - believe me until I posted this I thought I was unique and alone
Tomorrow I have a meeting with HR during which I will be bringing to their attention the company's failure of their duty of care to help me with my stress levels (which first manifested way back last year in a growth under my tongue...fortunately this was a traumatised gland caused by what other ....stress).
They have breached so many internal regs and rules i.e. no support, no time and motion on what I'm expected to do etc etc...tomorrow could be fun!!!!

Col

If you can, get someone to go with you so that you have a witness to the meeting. Go well prepared with times, dates etc and be prepared to stick to your guns.

I wish you the very best of luck.

Good luck Colin, at the meeting, it's time these companies realised they can't ride roughshod over people's feelings.

Lizx

Well I have resigned!!!!
The company is in no doubt of my reasons or the fact that I am now prepared to take this further.
I am on sick leave pending the termination of my employment and actually start my new job very soon.
If by chance you are wondering what kicked off the bullying ....I was told to sack someone whom had suffered a double misscarriage...I refused and the bullying began....
...Thanks so much for all your PM's, advice and posts....without you guys and gals it would have been sooooo much harder

Hi Colin, well done for sticking to your principles and considering the feelings of the woman who had suffered a double miscarriage.
I hadn't realised you had a new job lined up but I am glad you won't have to work with these selfish people any longer and wish you luck with the new job.
Lizx

Colin I am so sorry that you felt the need to resign, but I am amazingly proud to know you love.
What you did was a really wonderful thing, something to be proud of.
There is enough cruelty in this world today and you stood up for your beliefs.
I am proud of you and hope all goes well in your hearing.
So, did you save that woman her job, or is she too being bullied into leaving?
Good luck Colin.
Deanna XX

Hi Colin

We've not spoken before but I've been following this thread and I'd like to say "well done you" you're a gentleman.

All the luck in the world with your new job

Barb xx

Also been following your thread.

Why can't we have more bosses like you

All the best for your future

I just want to say as well Colin, good luck with the new job. I hate bullies of any kind and as we get older we do not expect to find it away from the playground but sadly people bully others in all walks of life.

Col

well done for standing by what you beleive.
Hopefully they will see how unfairly you have been treated.

Good luck in your new job.

d xx

One thing I remember being told was that "Bullies are Cowards"
Good luck in your new job
Liz

Well done, Col - sounds like you've come out on top.

Sue x