General Chat

Kaye!!! very good xxxx

A bit of food for thought........ ONE LAST THOUGHT Suppose some creatures from Outer Space invaded the earth and proved to be stronger or vastly more intelligent than ourselves. Would they be justified in ordering us to report for Vivisection? They might explain to us that, after all, they were very much more intelligent, that they would keep us in perfectly clean and hygienic cages and that they naturally regretted having to perform severe experiments upon us but that it was, unfortunately, necessary for the benefit of their own species. One can imagine one of their scientists trying to justify himself in these terms - “Please don’t think I am a Sadist. As a matter of fact I am very fond of Humans and keep several as pets. I can assure you that I would be the first to criticise any experiments that were unnecessary or involved unnecessary cruelty. I agree that fifty million Humans die in our laboratories each earth-year, but most of these are in routine experiments that do not involve severe pain. You really must not allow your emotions to cloud the issue.” Taken from 'Victims of Science' by Richard Ryder.

Vast amounts of money are spent on animal testing and scientists who do it know they will attract the attention of people who happily hurt people in the name of protecting animals. They wouldn't do it if there was a practical alternative. It's finel for animal rights activists to say they would never accept treatment tested on animals, as a personal choice. What is wrong is for them to deny that choice to society. Jehovas Witnesses won't have blood transfusions, but they don't firebomb the Blood Donor Centres. Unleashing any medication or surgical procedure is a bit of a gamble, but animal testing helps reduce that risk. All clinical trials will have to involve people at some stage, precisely because of the differences between species. It's all very well using criminals or anyone else, but if none of them have the particular disease scietists are hoping to cure, then there's no real point.

I'm with Diana on this. If it would save the life of someone I love then I couldn't give a tinker's cuss who or what it was tested on. Gwynne

depends em. there are two types of gasses, persistant and non persistant. the non persistant can stay around for years. and gas doesnt need to be fired. it can be sent on the wind, dropped from aircraft, or lit from a great distance and allowed to flow. the reason most countries dont use persistant gasses is that it then renders the place it was used dangerous for years. in the case of sadam though, he was willing to gas an entire town of women of children from his OWN country while the men were out working in the fields, (ive seen the video), so i would not put a thing past him. but to get back to the thread, i even wouldnt let sadam be used to test drugs. im with diana on the whole kill rats thing.

Sorry I have just read someone saying they wouldn't allow themselves or their children to use drugs that are tested on animals..... I hope you never have to make that choice I really do!! I don't understand how anyone can put an animal before a human and not be a VEGAN!! I have sat listening to people go on about animal testing when they are eating meat and wearing leather for goodness sake!! Rats are vermin, you wouldn't allow them to live freely in your house so why are we complaining that their use to save human lives is wrong???? I kill spiders, flies, wasps and any other bugs I find so why on earth would i complain about testing on vermin???? I love my cat with a passion and have spent hundreds keeping her alive after the car incident but if testing on her could save my life or that of someone I loved dearly, then YES I would allow it!! Call me evil if you like but its the truth!!

Jim - volunteering maybe, forcing no! Paul - that's fine :-)

now that, em is a fair point. communication has never been a strong point in my experience. sorry bec, digressing. x

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that all criminals be used indiscriminately, but those who have nothing to look forward to for 20 years or more could be given the option to volunteer as human guinea pigs. At least that way they will be giving something back to the Society they have wronged.

I don't like the idea of testing on criminals... Miscarriages of justice happen and people will ALWAYS have human rights (saying that though when they find the killer of that little boy found murdered recently then I could easily change my mind!).

ok im sorry guys but i have to raise issues here. grampa, tests on criminals? how far back in time do you want to go? susie, tests they USED to do in porton? still happening hon. x em c, i sympathise with you and your husband i really do but you cant say they did tests on the soldiers in gulf. yes they took things for the first time, but only because a biological war hadnt been fought for years and the drugs to help when gassed or affected were new. there is also strong evidence that sadam was gassing the troops with an odour free gas that causes the troubles guys and ladies have suffered. how can i say this? because i was there. and in bosnia. and in kosovo. hope you dont think im being argumentitive. just my opinion. x

Yes Susie, That's what I meant. They tested all kinds of nasty things on our Soldiers without telling them the truth, yet Long Term criminals e.g. Lifers, live a life of ease.

I'm against testing of anything on animals unless it's something that will be used on animals. If human tissue can now be grown in laboratories, let them use that for tests. Lab rats, as Em has illustrated, have only partial compatibility with humans, and much medical testing is later proven inadequate, or the results of it misleading. In my own experience, on the advice of my GP, I used HRT patches (plant-based) for almost 10 years. I was told that, as I have a high risk of heart attack, the patches would help protectg my heart. As soon as I had the first inkling that there was any controversy about my particular form of HRT, I weaned myself off it. This resulted in a sudden, massive weight gain and various other side effects. The weight has been very difficult to lose, but now it is finally shifting and I am beginning to feel healthy again. Initially, those HRT patches were tested on animals and found to be 'safe'. 9 years later, they were being condemned as raising people's risk of heart attacks, stroke or thrombosis. Em mentioned Warfarin. My mother was given that for years - alongside other drugs to combat the effects of it! It appears not to matter what results drug company scientists get, all sorts of substances are peddled as 'safe', when in reality they're not. I won't touch prescription medicines again unless I'm at death's door, and even then I might prefer to choose the alternative. CB >|<

All the testing they used to do in Porton Down too!! X

Anthrax!! Not nowing the full story about it and side effects! X

I think that many of us, myself included, have a problem defining our attitude to this. First of all, we eat meat, so animals have to be farmed and killed for our benefit. For this reason I am not against leather as if we are going to kill a beast we may as well use all of it. On the other hand we are, quite rightly, opposed to unnecessary cruelty to animals, and ask ourselves whether the experiments carried out are a) cruel, and b) necessary. The diificulty here is that Medical Research swings between the two. Is there any difference between killing an animal to eat, and killing an animal to help to find a cure for a human ailment. And as for the Cosmetics Industry, surely by now they have done enough research in oils and paints and glues and powders. Isn't it time they called a halt? What possible improvement can they still make to lipstick after all these years? Oh, and I agree that Criminals, including the Terrorist Animal Rights Activists should be used for medical research. After all, it is not that long ago that the MOD used Soldiers and without their knowledge.

All the techniques that we take for granted in surgery, including organ transplants, were developed on animals before human lives were risked. Maybe the protesters should volunteer! But I do think that testing for cosmetics, smoking etc. should be discontinued.

Benders - I think he should be locked in a cage!

Jayvee - Good point

The thing is now with these drugs that are being tested on him due to long term effects his Kidney & Liver functions are starting to be affected badly also his Stomach....So has it been worth it in a way! He is only 54 too... X