General Chat

Our government should be equally tough on neo nazis. len

Was it not Voltaire who said ' I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' ? Peter

Don't know Peter does that work both ways? that statement to me is a 'neither or'. But would that justify the fact that all those ship's that night on 13/9/1922 had to stand by and watch people dying, and weren't allowed to help? my grandfather included, as these are his photo's I am going by. Kim

I have not been to any 'memorial' to the Holocaust. I must accept that what has been written or filmed,is true. however. I know that this is going to raise a few eyebrows, another event that was filmed and recorded 'Live' is being doubted, that being, Did they really go to the moon? speculation says it was faked. I havent been to the moon, Either, but I do believe that they DID go there.

Smyrna wasn't the first 'ethnic cleansing'. It's been going on throughout history. Another example - in 1915, the Turkish army rounded up ethnic Armenians and slaughtered many thousands of them. Re WWII, it wasn't only Jews who were rounded up and interned in extermination camps. Gypsies were also a prime target, as was anyone mentally disabled. The Nazis also treated many thousands of Russian POWs appallingly - starving them, leaving them without shelter in freezing conditions and shooting them wholesale. This was all done because Nazi doctrine dictated that these people were all sub-human and to be regarded as animals. Anyone who denies those war crimes, however well-educated in other respects, is a fool. People in positions of authority have a moral duty to uphold truth, and if they don't they should have the sense to realised that there will be repercussions. That man knew he was breaking the law in that country, and the fact that he happens to be a British citizen should make no difference whatever to any sentence he receives for being a lawbreaker. Excusing what he did is just giving him, and anyone else, a 'licence' to carry on with his attempts to influence others by maintaining a position of importance and giving lectures on a subject he clearly knows very little about. A dangerous practice in a world which is working towards racial harmony and integration. CB >|<

If we are talking about extermination, of races here : Excuse me, I am led to believe that the first holocaust was ' The Flood'' ?

I agree it was a stupid thing to do, although last night he did say that he isn't denying that all those people were killed just as to the fact its called the Holocaust. If that makes much sense. Well thats the gist I got from it. But then if my grandads right I'm probably being narrow minded and don't have a clue. Sx

In my opinion Irving is a self publicist. I read an interview at the weekend with his twin brother who stated that as a children their street was bombed and a 6 year old Irving got into trouble by running through the rubble shouting 'Heil Hitler!'. He also caused controversy by requesting Mein Kampf as his school leaving book. I have spent time at Yad Vashem the Holocaust Museum in Israel and if anybody wishes to see examples of man's inhumanity to man they should take a look at the lampshades made from victim's skin, the cushions stuffed with human hair and china made from the ground bones of those poor people.

The sad thing is that by locking him up they might well have created a martyr for the Neo - Nazi movement.

Ginny, You are right!!anyone who denies that this happened must have those leanings. Bob, Do you mean Noah?? I can not see any similarities between an act of God(if you believe it,I dont) and the extermination of millions in the name of supremecy!!

fred, it also happened In york, in the 11 century, thousands were burnt to death!!

Roxanne, the gist drifted towards ''Enthnic Cleansing'',and which was earlier....... And if the Flood wasnt designed to do just that.....???eradicate the unclean, non believers...........and all other sorts of barbarians.......... Bob

Bob, I always thought that the Flood was to rid the world of sinners, nothing to do with ethnic cleansing, perhaps a theologian could correct me if Im wrong!

I dont really see any difference.......... its elimination of one race, by another........... Bob depending on who is the stronger, the other is the ethnic. and at that time, ' God' was on Noah's side.

Well this is certainly an interesting thread. You'd think that someone who is suppose to be a Historian would at least thorouly investigate these things before sprouting off. Maybe he should have gone to Auschwitz (Oswiecim), Breslin etc, there are at least 20 of these camps around Poland alone that still survive for people to see. Some of course don't have as much to see as much as Auschwitz. The fact that you can still smell the gas reminates in the gas chambers all the more real. I visited it while I was working in Poland, went there in the dead of winter. Like a few have said this is more likely to make a Marytr of him, wouldn't be better to stick him in some Pjs in the dead of winter with lots of snow and make him stand outside in the yards of one of the places, then maybe through a bucket of cold water over him just to give him a taste of what those poor people went through. Besides the Jewish and Gypsies, there were Poles, as well. Germans weren't excluded either basically it was also anyone who defied or oppossed Hitler and his regime. Incedently it was either Hitlers mother or Grandmother who was also Jewish I think, I know it was one member of his family. Gypsy Joe

Bob Regardless of whether Noah and the Ark has basis in fact, it wasn't a holocaust. 'Holocaust' means sacrificial or wholesale destruction by fire - literally 'burnt whole' (Greek I think)

Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire. Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff). A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland). A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames. [Middle English, burnt offering, from Old French holocauste, from Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos, burnt whole : holo-, holo- + kaustos, burnt (from kaiein, to burn).] hol'o·caus'tal or hol'o·caus'tic adj. USAGE NOTE Holocaust has a secure place in the language when it refers to the massive destruction of humans by other humans. Ninety-nine percent of the Usage Panel accepts the use of holocaust in the phrase nuclear holocaust. Sixty percent of the Panel accepts the sentence As many as two million people may have died in the holocaust that followed the Khmer Rouge takeover in Cambodia. But because of its associations with genocide, people may object to extended applications of holocaust. When the word is used to refer to death brought about by natural causes, the percentage of the Panel accepting drops sharply. Only 31 percent of the Panel approves the sentence In East Africa five years of drought have brought about a holocaust in which millions have died. In a 1987 survey, just 11 percent approved the use of holocaust to summarize the effects of the AIDS epidemic. This suggests that other figurative usages such as the huge losses in the Savings and Loan holocaust may be viewed as overblown or in poor taste.•When capitalized Holocaust refers specifically to the destruction of Jews and other Europeans by the Nazis and may also encompass the Nazi persecution of Jews that preceded the outbreak of the war. WORD HISTORY Totality of destruction has been central to the meaning of holocaust since it first appeared in Middle English in the 14th century, used in reference to the biblical sacrifice in which a male animal was wholly burnt on the altar in worship of God. Holocaust comes from Greek holokauston (“that which is completely burnt”), which was a translation of Hebrew ‘&#333;lâ (literally “that which goes up,” that is, in smoke). In this sense of “burnt sacrifice,” holocaust is still used in some versions of the Bible. In the 17th century the meaning of holocaust broadened to “something totally consumed by fire,” and the word eventually was applied to fires of extreme destructiveness. In the 20th century holocaust has taken on a variety of figurative meanings, summarizing the effects of war, rioting, storms, epidemic diseases, and even economic failures. Most of these usages arose after World War II, but it is unclear whether they permitted or resulted from the use of holocaust in reference to the mass murder of European Jews and others by the Nazis. This application of the word occurred as early as 1942, but the phrase the Holocaust did not become established until the late 1950s. Here it parallels and may have been influenced by another Hebrew word, šô’â (“catastrophe,” in English, Shoah). In the Bible šô’â has a range of meanings including “personal ruin or devastation” and “a wasteland or desert.” Šô’â was first used to refer to the Nazi slaughter of Jews in 1939, but the phrase haš-šô’â (“the catastrophe”) became established only after World War II. Holocaust has also been used to translate h&#803;urb&#257;n (“destruction”), another Hebrew word used to summarize the genocide of Jews by the Nazis.

David, then if Holocaust refers to a burnt sacrifice, then it didnt happen in Germany...........because the majority of exterminations were done in gas chambers? As I read it,then, the term is wrongly being used to cover the mass destruction of over 5 million people?

Some Jews do object to the term 'Holocaust' on the grounds it was muder not sacrifice, and prefer 'Shoah'. The Jews were burnt in crematoria after being gassed, which could be why the word Holocaust was used.

Bob, Yes they were gased prior to being burnt, some however(babies and small children) were just thrown into the ovens!! The camps were all over not just in Germany some in poland!!Camp Function Location Established Evacuated Liberated Est. No. Murdered Auschwitz Concentration/ Extermination Oswiecim, Poland (near Krakow) May 26, 1940 January 18, 1945 January 27, 1945 by Soviets 1,100,000 Belzec Extermination Belzec, Poland March 17, 1942 Liquidated by Nazis December 1942 600,000 Bergen-Belsen Detention; Concentration (After 3/44) near Hanover, Germany April 1943 April 15, 1945 by British 35,000 Buchenwald Concentration Buchenwald, Germany (near Weimar) July 16, 1937 April 6, 1945 April 11, 1945 Self-Liberated; April 11, 1945 by Americans Chelmno Extermination Chelmno, Poland December 7, 1941; June 23, 1944 Closed March 1943 (but reopened); Liquidated by Nazis July 1944 320,000 Dachau Concentration Dachau, Germany (near Munich) March 22, 1933 April 26, 1945 April 29, 1945 by Americans 32,000 Dora/Mittelbau Sub-camp of Buchenwald; Concentration (After 10/44) near Nordhausen, Germany August 27, 1943 April 1, 1945 April 9, 1945 by Americans Drancy Assembly/ Detention Drancy, France (suburb of Paris) August 1941 August 17, 1944 by Allied Forces Flossenbürg Concentration Flossenbürg, Germany (near Nuremberg) May 3, 1938 April 20, 1945 April 23, 1945 by Americans Gross-Rosen Sub-camp of Sachsenhausen; Concentration (After 5/41) near Wroclaw, Poland August 1940 February 13, 1945 May 8, 1945 by Soviets 40,000 Janowska Concentration/ Extermination L'viv, Ukraine September 1941 Liquidated by Nazis November 1943 Kaiserwald/Riga Concentration (After 3/43) Meza-Park, Latvia (near Riga) 1942 July 1944 Koldichevo Concentration Baranovichi, Belarus Summer 1942 22,000 Majdanek Concentration/ Extermination Lublin, Poland February 16, 1943 July 1944 July 22, 1944 by Soviets 360,000 Mauthausen Concentration Mauthausen, Austria (near Linz) August 8, 1938 May 5, 1945 by Americans 120,000 Natzweiler/Struthof Concentration Natzweiler, France (near Strasbourg) May 1, 1941 September 1944 12,000 Neuengamme Sub-camp of Sachsenhausen; Concentration (After 6/40) Hamburg, Germany December 13, 1938 April 29, 1945 May 1945 by British 56,000 Plaszow Concentration (After 1/44) Krakow, Poland October 1942 Summer 1944 January 15, 1945 by Soviets 8,000 Ravensbrück Concentration near Berlin, Germany May 15, 1939 April 23, 1945 April 30, 1945 by Soviets Sachsenhausen Concentration Berlin, Germany July 1936 March 1945 April 27, 1945 by Soviets Sered Concentration Sered, Slovakia (near Bratislava) 1941/42 April 1, 1945 by Soviets Sobibor Extermination Sobibor, Poland (near Lublin) March 1942 Revolt on October 14, 1943; Liquidated by Nazis October 1943 Summer 1944 by Soviets 250,000 Stutthof Concentration (After 1/42) near Danzig, Poland September 2, 1939 January 25, 1945 May 9, 1945 by Soviets 65,000 Theresienstadt Concentration Terezin, Czech Republic (near Prague) November 24, 1941 Handed over to Red Cross May 3, 1945 May 8, 1945 by Soviets 33,000 Treblinka Extermination Treblinka, Poland (near Warsaw) July 23, 1942 Revolt on April 2, 1943; Liquidated by Nazis April 1943 Vaivara Concentration/ Transit Estonia September 1943 Closed June 28, 1944 Westerbork Transit Westerbork, Netherlands October 1939 April 12, 1945 camp handed over to Kurt Schlesinger