General Chat

Can the soul leave the body and return?

Dr Pim van Lommel, cardiologist, Rijnstate Hospital, Arnhem. 'During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man.' len

Good to see you contributing again, Len. Fascinating story, though no doubt it will attract the 'Daves' who will dismiss it as rubbish; it is a pity that they will not leave a coherent argument to back their stance. Let us raise some hackles, and stir a bit of the lethargy. Rob

So little reponse - I wonder how many are viewing. At risk of raising too many hackles, I wonder how many prefer the more vaucous threads?

Probably the majority, Robert:-) Although I always enjoy reading Len's contributions. BC

There are many things beyond our present understanding. I have read many articles on this subject written by doctors, nurses and patients. The one thing that most of the patients say is that they no longer fear death. I reserve my judgement. Beryl x

Sorry to be pedantic, Len but I believe these are 'Out of Body' experiences rather than 'Near Death' experiences. Daughter had one when she fell half way down the stairs aged about 18 months - 2 years. She wasn't nearly dead, but unconscious and then confused for a few minutes. As I approached her from the top of the stairs to pick her up, She shouted and screamed hysterically. When she was a little older, we were takling about it. Apparently she was looking down on herself and I had walked through her floating body!!! Near death experiences usually involve a tunnel with light at the end. maggie

I enjoy reading Len's contributions, too.

Interesting Len, how little we know about how the brain, so many unanswered questions.

Why apologise for pedantry, Maggie? While you are right in that many report having 'out of body' experiences whilst they are nowhere near death, the case quoted by Len WAS a 'near death' experience (the medical people treating him doubted his chances for survival). These reports do raise the question as to what we are; are we really just a collection of complex electrical impulses powered by organic fuel (as believed by many, usually atheistic, people) or are we something beyond that - is our entity using the corporeal body for as-yet-to-be-determined / discovered reasons?

Hi Robert, I'm going to be pedantic again. :o) Len's description is of an 'Out of Body' experience, even though the person was near death. The two experiences have different titles. I'm also an atheist, but believe in the body being more than just a collection of electrical impulses. Where does all that energy go when we die? I have to admit I actually studied these experiences whilst doing a degree in Religion - with Colin Firth's mum as a lecturer !!! :0) maggie.

Maggie There's not always a tunnel. I have had both a NDE and an OOB experience concurrently. I went into Guys Hospital when I was about 10 or 11, for a small abdominal op. that turned into a big one. My parents were in a nearby room and someone left the theatre to tell them that I had collapsed and died under the anaesthetic. I recall being up near the ceiling and watching the efforts at resuscitation, which eventually worked. In the recovery room, I was able to tell my parents, and the nurses, exactly what had gone on, even describing the operation (ileostomy) which was quite different from what I had been told to expect. Of course, I was severely brain-damaged. len

Out-of-body experiences are the belief that consciousness has separated from the physical body and is floating, usually near or just above the body. This is an experience that has been recounted thousands of time over the millennia but it has hitherto been dismissed by scientists as a mental aberration due to the extreme stress of being near to death. However, studies in Holland and Canada, notably by Dr P van Lommel of Rijnstate Hospital in Holland indicate that it is no myth but that it does actually occur. The phenomenon reported by people who have been declared as brain dead but who, by the marvels of modern science, have been revived has been carefully investigated over 300 hospitals in Holland. The memories laid down during the period of being brain dead, often giving detailed accounts of the efforts being made to resuscitate them, can only have been laid down if the consciousness’ that recorded the memories was elsewhere in the theatre, usually above and looking down.

Where have you been,Robert? Gadding about in foreign parts again? Have you checked out my other thread? Its getting towards a conclusion. Have you heard of 'automatic writing'? I hope to practice after I pop my clogs, and get something on GR. len

Sorry Len, i'm not saying 'Out of body' experiences don't happen in near death situations, just saying the two experiences - floating above the event and going down a tunnel - are known by different names, for ease of identification. maggie

Hi Len, I am back at last, have had probs with the computer just before and since we returned from our holiday. I found your story interesting and don't really care what the title is, I just believe these things are possible. Liz

Hello again, Len. Not exactly 'gadding' about, more just ambling, and irritating everyone around me. But enough of me - Maggie, an atheist studying religion? Did your studies convert you to atheism? Or were they a hope to convert you FROM atheism? Is atheism another form of belief? I do believe that we humans are not the pinnacle of life; we may be on a metaphorical plateau, the rise to the summit hidden in the mist. If an amoeba thinks, could it comprehend the complexity of the world we take for granted? Take a look at this website (borught to my attention in another of Len's threads): iands(.)org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel3(.)php Just remove the parenthesese around the d.o.t.s. Rob

Hi Len Another fascinating story and to hear you have experienced them too is even more fascinating!! I'd love to sit and really discuss this further to try and understand more. I do believe that as humans we are not IT in the world and I believe as you know in life after death.... so I totally believe this type of thing can happen when the soul leaves the body and is returned due to modern medicinal procedures! Hugs Pink xx

In 2000 when I had an op involving drilling a hole in the skull I woke up in ICU to the sound of an angelic voice.....it was the nurse.........but I did then notice that I could not see the rest of the ward because of some privacy boards or something dividing the room in sections............however I was aware that I had seen the other side of the boards and the other beds, trolleys and patients...and could desribe it if i wished to.....but I kept quiet...just happy to be alive. I don't think that I was in a situation of near death..the op was fine

hiya len another brilliant thread,as usual lol i am fascinated by the afterlife and near death experiences. you are a wise man len and i admire you give my love to mary xxxx