General Chat

Of course we would all wish that money given either through the govt or individual donations should go where it's meant to and the govt and charities have a responsibilty to ensure that, as far as they are able, that's a seperate issue though Foggy, and I really wanted to stick with the main one here.

Talking to Dan last night we hit the 'moral dilemma', where does 'looking after number one" end and 'moral responsibility' begin? as an example, if I have money and I employ a clever accountant who cuts my accurate tax bill using 'loopholes', am I 'clever' or 'dishonest'? lol.

Why should any of us care if it doesn't affect us personally? because we do and it does! If not in our own back yard, because it is the country's ( any country) future, these children who know nothing but struggle and poverty, and have lost 'hope' almost before they know the meaning of the word.

I don't think you would be either clever or dishonest.
In business there are things that are tax deductible and things that are not.
When I had my business I wanted everything I could claim for, the accountant works to the revenue guide lines, but should make sure that his client gains as much as possible, that is how it works.

Regarding any moral issues with it, I personally don't think morals come into it.
Is it morally right that children are brought up in a family where the parents are either drunkards or drug addicts, thereby subjecting their children to a life of poverty so that they can get their fix.?
Is it morally right for children to be raised in a family where the parents WONT work to support them,?
You often see that in the homes of these deprived children, not all of them I must add, there is always large flat screen TV, electronic game consuls etc..
Where are the priorities there.

ah but there are legally and morally ok ways an accountant uses to save a client's money Foggy, and some which are neither ;-) I wasn't really meaning legitimate claims, I mean t the decidedly dodgy ones!

I always look, i admit, to see if the impoverished can still afford cigarettes lol, because i don't smoke and could not afford to. BUT, in the write up of the programme , the maker said he felt bad having asked why, if the single mum could barely afford food for the kids, she kept a dog? the answer was for protection after finding a stranger in the house...so the dog was not an 'un-necessary expense'. My cups of coffee are not an 'essential', but you do have to have 'something' to get you through the days...for some people I have to accept this will be cigarettes?


With TVs, games consoles, there is a point at which the entertainment provided by the tv, IS an essential in some ways...it keeps the kids off dangerous streets for one thing, if there is nowhere 'safe' to play, what do you do?

I'll have to be quick Rita, because I'm in between cooking lol

Why do the North think the South are 'rich'? ( and bear in mind none of my family come from the North unless you count Cheshire lol) , most of my family also came from London in the late 19C living in very poor conditions, and continued that way well into the 20thC. I too have lived in houses with an outside toilet and no bathroom.

I suppose to be fair this idea of the wealth being in the South ,or my impression of why people may have felt it so anyway. stems from hearing about the Jarrow marches from my mum ( edited...my uncle was a special constable employed to keep things under control during the general strike ). London, was where the government was, the 'decision makers.

I think, and from people I have spoken too, that there is still, rightly or wrongly, a feeling that those in govt in London are too far away to know what life is like in the, now non-industrial, North.

In the 'south' ( draw a line across from Liverpool perhaps?), there has traditionally not been quite as much industry and so jobs whilst still scarce at various times, have not been quite so concentrated in specific industries? ( I am thinking here the yorks and Lancs mills, the ship building, steel works etc further North).

sorry got to check potatoes , back in a bit

(Edit, typing too quickly, I made a mistake re uncle, he was actually a special constable during the General strike, NOT the Jarrow march specifically.)

back...

It's such a huge question Rita , and I am not equipped to give you an answer, I'm not an economist or a politician. My stance is purely personal, based on many things, from personal experience of ( relative) poverty, even just the way I was brought up, not especially in a religious home but seeing someone in need as deserving of help if it could possibly be given...whether that was a neighbour next door , a stranger or someone a 1000 miles away. Why should 'we' help other countries? or more pertinently try and help poor people in those countries? Because in relative terms 'we' are better off and they need the help.

I can only give you my own very 'woolly' answer, and that is because I honestly believe trying to bring other countries ( and ours at the same time) up to a basic standard of living, of democracy, of peace, and of caring for others where ever they may live, is essential to the future...see I told you it was woolly lol.

Can I just reply to one point you make? "The people out there keep giving birth they all seem to have large families you would think they would realise that when they have a child it costs more money.to feed and cloth.not our responsiblity "

My gt grandfather had 8 children, could he afford them? no, I think that could probably apply to most of us on here, that at some point we had ancestors who lived in poverty but still kept having children? part of that might be religious observance
( Catholic) part might be having more children because of the high mortality rate. In some countries people have more children because it is the only way there is a chance of being supported in their old age ( no welfare state) .

On a personal level it is of course up to the individual what charity they give to, and where and how much ( or nothing ) without having to be made to feel selfish or uncomfortable either way. From point of view of govt...we are all free to vote for any party that decides against aid to other countries...or indeed to form such a party if so many people feel that it is what needs to be done...or even march on Downing St in mass protest.

It makes me really angry that we are sending all that aid to India when they have more millionaires then we have and they are a rich country.

Rita, i probably would have burnt them if I had put the hob on the right setting lol, as it was they were just sitting there in tepid water ! However they have now been cooked and eaten.

"The bit about them having large families and out Grand ancestors having large families there is a difference our Grand ancestors didnt get any help .it was the work house for them if they could not manage and times were different then no prevention against having babies , that is not the case now."

Not in this country it isn't the case, but it still is in so many other countries.

There is obviously a huge failure in getting the money to the right people, but should that mean we no longer try? Yes money has gone into the pockets of corrupt governments, but it always will, and there will, even in countries where this is not the case, be natural disasters on a scale we just do not get in this country and which those countries cannot cope with.

We live in a country where if a crop fails due to drought, no one starves. We are not war torn and pushed from our homes at gun point.

It is a circular argument that we could have forever lol,

But to get back to the initial post, there is no excuse , not recession , nor immigration, nor overseas aid, nor fighting wars, for the existence of slums in THIS country. No excuse, while ANY politician sits comfortably in no 10 with his kids warm and safe , for the children in that programme to lie in damp rooms, with their lungs subjected to mould spores.

sleep well Rita :-)

I hope the royals and all them that sit on fat gov handout wallets saw it aswell.........



Sam is a very intelligent boy,,,,,,he should go far.and how switched on were those children,,,,,,

Of course the BBC found the worse case to highlight this problem and with any luck it *may*shame departments to get something done for the kids who will be the future of this country....

Glad to see this thread went as expected.


http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2010/06/24/india-mints-millionaires/

India has 126,700 millionaires (in USD).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368160/Budget-2011-More-millionaires-UK-wealthy-bounce-credit-crunch.html

The UK has 619,000 millionaires -- and is that in pounds? A millionaire in US dollars would not be a millionaire in pounds.

Of course, there's also the fact that the population of India is over a billion -- what, 20 times the population of the UK?

But hey, don't let that stop you from saying things like

"It makes me really angry that we are sending all that aid to India when they have more millionaires then we have and they are a rich country",

Linda.


Where do people get such absolute nonsense from? Not even the dailymail in this case, it seems. What compels people to proclaim such garbage in public, I will never understand.


I do sometimes wonder whether, if people actually knew a few more truths and a few less falsehoods, they wouldn't also be nicer people.

well I have found a link which gives me a chance to put at least a little money where my mouth is :-)

Obesity & starvation continue to co-exist in our uncertain modern world.

Sharron that lad with his sister's blouse didn't have a Mum, she left when he was two and his Dad brought him and his sister up then seemed to have had another little boy who is half brother to the two older children and lives with his Mum down the road!! I think it said on the programme the father had lost his job some time before. It looked as tho they had a big garden and I did think it would be good if the dad worked on the plot and grew some vegetables etc

I noticed that the little girl fropm another family had some rubbishy food, she said it was a giant sausage roll, shop bought, but that's not a nourishing dinner for a child. Maybe that Mum needed some help with balancing her money and buying better more nourishing food that she cooked herself.

Lizx

Incidentally, how much aid are we sending to India and what is the cost of this per head of UK population?

Anyone know?

Rita - I don't know where you get £46 billion from, the figure I have found (from a number of sources, including the Daily Fail) is £280 million.

I think you will find the figure for aid to India is around £280 million, or about £4.50 per head of population. Total worldwide foreign economic aid for 2011 is expected to be around £6.5 billion.

It is actually part of the total Defence budget which is £46 billion.

On the other hand spending on Pensions and Welfare for 2011 will be in the order of £230 billion - £3,680 per head of population, Health Care and Education accounts for a further £200 billion - another £3,200 per head.

The point being that even if we scrap all overseas aid today, the overall impact on our finances would be negligible.

with respect, this thread was not started as a debate about overseas aid or how many millionaires there are per capita....to give it or not....it is what the govt does with the money remaining in THIS country!

Overseas aid is a topic that has been beaten over the head with a large stick already on many threads...please...if you want another one start your own? I am saying this nicely :-)

In 1999, Tony Blair announced the historic aim of ending child poverty within a generation. The following website has research into what is happening regarding child poverty.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/work/workarea/child-poverty

For anyone interested specifically in growth in India and how that might affect aid to there/ and British trade

"When David Cameron announced last year that the UK would aim to double bilateral trade with India by 2015, it seemed an ambitious target.

Yet this aspiration can become a reality as long as UK businesses choose to become part of India’s growth story – which has only just begun."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/0fc13300-7a36-11e0-bc74-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1OllTxCln

Like a said a massive subject.

Rita, not really a case of it being 'my' thread, as you know I am happy to tackle any issue lol, I just feel it is now going off on a tangent rather from the original subject.