General Chat

I keep nudging so people who missed this the first time and would be interested, can record or watch it this time round.

I can fully understand how your loss remains with you constantly, being the same myself over my daughter. There was little support given to mothers in those days, and you certainly went through the mill. It must have been awful to have to listen to those girls after their abortions when your baby was wanted and lost. I had to endure similar when I went into hospital for some surgery later on after my daughter's birth and death and there was a young girl of 16 or so swanning around after her abortion. I felt so angry with her and with life as at that time I hadn't managed to conceive again with my daughter's father and to see her so chipper cos she had got rid of her problem made me feel sick with anger.

It's good to hear you had support from your church on both occasions. Not always the case I think.

Lizx

Purple

Thank you for keep nudging this thread, even if someone feels they cannot contribute it may give solace to some.

Re my previous entry.

My first child died on Christmas Eve 1970 in hospital. Being both a qualified nurse and midwife I knew that my pregnancy was not going as it should but I was simply" worrying for nothing" is what I was told.
The loss of that child remains with me every day, I remember all to clearly being placed in a six bed unit , one bed empty, one bed with a 90+ lady, 2 beds with girls aged about 17 who had abortions, one person who simply slept all the time and me.

The two girls went to the windows and had loud conversations with their boy friends which was coarse to say the least, the old lady in pain but little the staff could do. I was in a lot of pain and very distressed. I was given pain relief even though I told them that I was allergic to the medication and had my alert bracelet on! As a result I had a cardiac arrest and do not recall very much for another 2 days when I was told by the Sister on the ward I could go home and not to try for another child or at least a year.

The priest (Catholic) who had officiated at my wedding was wonderful and told me that contraception was becoming acceptable and if that is what I needed then the church would not condenm me.

Many years latter and after three successful births, with a lot of help with the pregnancies,( one set of identical twins and two single children) I was told that medically I needed an hysterectomy. I consulted again with the church and was told by the Monsieur the following which has been in my memory ever since. "If you needed an arm removed because it was diseased or you had to have a kidney or any other part of your body removed the church would not condemn me neither does it when a deceased womb has to be removed or removed because it places the woman in a very dangerous situation"
I had had the operation and am still a Catholic although not always a church goer.

Never was told what had happened to the child who was 5months conceived

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Just to let you all know this programme is being repeated next Thursday evening late, on bbc1 for those who missed it.

Lizx

Mary, you were saved for very special reasons, you were so needed and still are. I too cannot come to terms with my loss and altho Zoe was alive for almost three days, I didn't think to take a photo and no one else did either. It was before the days of mobile phone/cameras and digital cameras and before the time of hospitals understanding that we Mums need help to come to terms with such loss so I have nothing of my daughter except her little grave and headstone. Even her hospital file has been destroyed now apparently. I had to go to the City Hall and register her birth and death at the same time, which was very traumatic. No photos, no prints of little hands or feet or even her hospital bracelet. No cuddles either, just an increasingly vague memory of her in the incubator, looking like a real baby as far as I can recall altho she must have been so small at 1 lb 10 oz - I can't picture her tiny but she would have been. All I can remember is very blue almost turquoise blue eyes looking at me, but is that really a memory or does my memory play tricks on me? 37 years is such a long time but as you say Mary, our little ones are always held in our hearts.

Your stepdaughter was lucky to have the chance to hold her little one and have a photo too, and it must be good for the other twin to know what the little boy looked like and that he had a cuddle from his Mummy. These sad occasions are better dealt with now to help the parents through.

It was hard for me at Christmas, o.h.'s son made his dad a gift of a photo frame with a picture of the new granddaughter and in two separate squares of the frame were a little footprint and a lock of hair. More like the things that are given to bereaved parents and even o.h. was a bit surprised by the photo, he has put it in an upstairs room he uses as a dressing room as he said he didn't want it out all the time as it felt odd looking at it and also he thought it might upset me.

One day we will be able to hold our lost children again,.

Lizxxx

I too lost a son at birth in 1973, he was buried in his own grave in the 'babyland' section of the local cemetary and we have a small memorial stone. I was never allowed to see my beautiful little blond son, let alone hold him. His death was the result of an abruptio placenta, before I could deliver him, although I was in the labour ward. The time lost, transferring me to another floor of the hospital for an emergency c-section, cost him his life and almost mine as well. He was pronounced dead after 15 minutesof rescucitation. I had a 'near-death experience' from massive blood loss, but mercifully survived to continue loving my 2 daughters and a year later to have another son.
My step-daughter Claire, gave birth to twins 5 years ago in Watford, one was transferred to London for immediate heart surgery, and died during the operation. She was transferred by ambulance to the other hospital, in order that she could hold him. It didn't heal her pain but it helped that, after his death, she has a photo and the memory of holding him. So many other Mums have nothing but the hole in their heart.
Going home with empty arms has to be one of the most traumatic experiences one can possibly have. For me, the tears are still there 37 years later. For myself, Claire, Liz and so many others, we share the tragedy of experiencing both extremes of life almost in the same moment.
The one thing which continues to upset me, was that there is no official documentation that my son ever existed. He is buried in a cemetary, there is a brass plaque on his grave, but there is no birth certificate, no death certificate, nothing to say he existed, even for a brief moment in time. I can but hold him in my heart.
Sharing sorrow and hugs,
Mary

Yes Liz

This week twice I have read about mothers and siblings trying to find their babes. One even discovered hers did not die at birth as she was told but lived for 17 hours so she ended up with a birth as well as death cert.

Burials as far back as 1937 were discovered. It was said that if you find the burial grounds hospital used (not always the nearest but usually) you could check the Burial Ledgers there. Also local undertakers quite often could assist.

Even as was usual most of the time they were put in with someone else (I like to think it was so they would not be alone) they have been traced. One mother discovered her babe was with 3 other babes by themselves.

Hope this info will be of some use.

Is this the thread someone on chat was looking for?


Lizx

I have read this thread, and knew nothing of limbo babies til now.
My heart goes out to all that have lost babies. I havent lost a baby, but I know about loss.
A thought did come to me re. catholic church and the pope though.
If babies such as these are treated with such indifference, why is abortion a complete no no. It seems such a contradiction.
Its a wonder religion has survived this long.

Did you see the programme David, or see the anguish on the parents' faces? Have you ever lost a child?

I am not a Catholic or a lapsed Catholic, I have nothing against anyone who wants to be a Catholic, my son's father's family are strong Catholics (his Nanna and Aunt, some of the others are not so devout)

I would be as disgusted if it was a different church making those awful rules.

I don't know how the Pope, who will never and has never (we assume) had a child of his own or known the pain of losing a baby, can make rules or judge how things should be dealt with.



I am feeling a bit down as not only did my partner's son and d.i.l. have a baby girl in October, I had two other people I know well have baby girls this year and then friends in America wrote me yesterday (Well their cat did, the cats always write the news of the year letter) Yet another baby girl born in the autumn to the daughter of my friends, I met them when they lived next to my aunt instead of living on the raf base near Bucks, and their daughter who just became a Mum, was a tiny baby herself. That was just after my daughter was born and died, so it was hard for me to hold little Paula but I did when I visited my aunt, and all these years on, 34 or so, we are still in touch and now she has a baby girl too. She is stepmum to two older children as well and lives in Texas but my friends live in Colorado now so they won't see the little granddaughter much, sadly.

All these baby girls, it gets to me so much and today I went to get some things for o.h.'s granddaughter for Christmas. Such a gorgeous little pair of purple mini ankle boots, the knitted type that are fashionable now and these would have fitted a baby of a couple of months I suppose. I was so tempted to get them and put away in case I have a granddaughter when my son finally gets round to settling down, but resisted. By the time it happens, Sods Law purple mini boots would be out of fashion or I will get a grandson, born in summer with no need of boots!

Lizx

David, I dont want to appear confrontational but do you honestly believe its right that these parents and babies deserved to be treated in this heartless and cruel manner.

Cath xx

David I was raised a Roman Catholic by a mother who came from a very devout family and a father who converted to the faith. When I was in my early teens my mother suffered a late miscarriage ,the last of several ,she started 14 pregnancies had five live births and only four babies who survived ,the doctor told my father that he had a choice either my mother OR the child but both would not survive.He chose my mother ,against the advice of our priest.When she was recovering they spoke to the priest about contraception ,the pill was new on the market ,and dad didn't want her to risk her life again.The priest told them that there was NO way they could use contraceptives and remain in the church .So although they still raised us as catholics they never went back ,they were consumed with guilt for a very long time .My older sisters both raised their children as catholics ,in a time when girls took the pill had pre marital relations and still went to church ..Me my kids were raised in the Church of Scotland ,at least the minister understands family life .My younger sister was only just school age when my folks had to make ther choice ,if they had done what the priest said was the right thing she would have grown up without her mum,her kids were given no religious instruction at all

Limbo seems to have 'died a death' & is old hat as far as the RC church's current teaching is concerned. Nonetheless, many contributors here have had cruel treatments in the past & let's hope it is the past.

Pope Benedict continues to promote 'life' with dignity from cradle to grave -something not to be discarded by abortion or euthanasia. We should support him in these matters.

David, why do you assume that people who have let's say 'unfavourable' impressions of the Catholic church must be non-Catholics or have no knowledge or experience of the Catholic church?

I didn't see the programme, but I have read the replies here with great sadness. That's all I can say really without treading on toes... my mother left the church because of it's rigidity...her God, the one she believed in, could not be shoe-horned into the Catholic mold.

God bless your babies,

rose xx

I watched this programme over the weekend and my heart went out to these poor women. I am horrified at the way they and their babies were treated, not an ounce of compassion. I am not of any religious persuasion but fail to see the teachings of the Catholic church regarding "Limbo babies" as anything but cruel and heartless and completely unnecessary and only served one purpose and that was to instil pain and fear into parents who were unfortunate enough to have a stillborn child. All babies are born innocent and should be treated as such. The pain those families felt was still visible on the faces of the mothers years later.
(((hugs))) for those of you that lost babies.


Cath xx

Bridget, I am glad you were able to help your Mum find where your brother was buried and it's nice that you can continue to mark his resting place.

Your quote Suffer little children as I said earlier seems to give all children and babies the right to a proper burial or whatever choice is made and for man to decide otherwise is wrong.

Patricia, my daughter was just 1 lb 10 oz. My doctor had given me the wrong dates - he kept telling me I wasn't pregnant and I said I was, my pregnancy was only confirmed when I was three months gone according to the doc but in fact when my daughter arrived at what I thought was 28 weeks, the hospital said she was a 30 week baby altho very small for that time scale.

There was no injection then to help prepare her tiny lungs - my doctors were at fault for not checking me out just telling me over the phone to stay off work and rest when I had some problems, he didn't say keep your feet up just stay off work for a few days. My own doctor's wife was dying of cancer so I was put under the care of a newly appointed gp at our practice, to this day I hold him responsible for not checking me out properly, and he also messed up when my Dad was ill, told him for two years he had chest infections, and when he finally sent him for an xray, it was lung cancer and too far advanced for much help, Dad only lived for six months after the diagnosis with very little treatment.

Lizx