General Chat

A programme on tonight at 11.20pm about the thousands of anonymous graves housing the bodies of stillborn babies who were denied a proper burial due to Catholic theology. This report explores the impact on parents.

I know there are several people on the boards who will be affected by this in some way.

Lizx

Thanks Liz. I hadn't spotted that programme. I have set my recorder as it will be after my bedtime.

Elisabeth x

Thanks Liz
I for one will find the programme interesting
Kay x

nudging

Yes i will watch it Liz .
Thanks for putting this up because i would have missed it .
Hazelx

So very sad, but at last most of the parents got a result and a little closure to the trauma of their loss and the way the babies were labelled as in limbo, between heaven and hell for all time.

I am so lucky that I was able to have my daughter buried in the cemetery, altho things weren't dealt with well from the time of her birth and death and I was told by the funeral directors that parents didn't usually attend the burials. She was put in a common grave and it was only when I decided to go and see where she was that I found it could have been reopened for another baby's body which was awful to hear. I was able to buy the burial rights so that plot cannot be opened unless my son wants to get permission and pay a fee to put my ashes in/on there when the time comes. The burial rights I bought run for another 38 years.

My thoughts are with all the parents and siblings of those babies who didn't get the chance to grow up. May all those little angels be resting in peace.

Lizx

I have just watched this on i player, it was so very very sad

Pam

i lost my baby son in 1961 ..he was a still born and a thalidomide baby .
and as far as i know he was buried with someone else . he will be in one of two cemetery's St Margarets church yard or St Lawrance's church yard
in Edgware Middx.
I was told at the time to go home and forget him, that was nearly 49 yrs yrs ago , he would have been 49 yrs old this 27 Dec 2010 have i forgot him no of course i haven't and never will .
i have been in touch with the funeral directors a while ago now and asked if they could tell me which churchyard he is in but they have said that they dont keep records that long ago .
I watched the program last night and i was so sad for those mothers
i felt for them , but now after all this time most of them have a closure
which is nice .
Hazelx

Liz i no how you feel and other parents, my daughter gave birth to full term baby but she was still born,and i buried her with my mum and dad it was realy very sad the tiny coffin sat on the vicars knee in the front of the car,but at least we no were she is just wish some of parents had the same comfort knowing were there little ones were but it was quite different years ago ,to all the little ones R.I.P never forgotton
Dutchx

Thanks folks, such sadness for so many parents and many on here including you Elisabeth. I will pm you later.

Hazel, it's so sad that there are no records. I wonder if any of you could advertise for any gravediggers still alive who might remember where little ones were placed.

I felt angry with the R.C. church who were so unfeeling and judgemental, and so so wrong in their thinking. I thought there were words used like Suffer the little children to come unto me....... (except if you have the misfortune to die before you draw breath in this wicked world!)

Joyce, I remember you telling me of your little granddaughter, she and her Mum are together now.

Lizxxx

Hi Liz,
hope you are well.
I did not see your thread yesterday.
The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer for, and i hope that they do.
Thankfully my baby was born when i was at home on holidays, my mam made sure that she was buried with her mother in my home town.
Babies had to live for at least one hour before they could be registered as live babies here, they were and probably still are considered an non-entity.
Stillborns were not allowed to be buried in consacrated ground. We were told to get on with it that we would have plenty more children, but no matter how many or how few we had it never made up for the lost baby. We were not even asked how we were feeling when we went back for our check-up, i n actual fact the Doctor that i saw had not read my notes and asked me how my baby was feeding!!!!!.
Years ago still borns were buried at holy wells by their parents because (1) they were not allowed be buried in holy ground.
(2) Most mothers gave birth at home. remember my aunt telling me one day that they were told that they could bury them in the back garden if they wanted
Even now the policy is that still borns are kept til six babies die then they are buried in one grave.
About 5 years ago there was found 5 S.B. babies bodies found in a shed in the biggest and very well known hospitals in Dublin waiting for another baby to be buried.
My baby was born 34 years ago but it was only about 3 years ago that i over heard a conversation to a G.R.O. member about certs for still borns so i went straight up to the lady and asked her about one.
I wish that i had seen it, the Church makes my blood boil, so much so that i probably will never see the gates of heaven.
Lily.
I

Lily, my Dad was told to bury my stillborn brother in the garden, how I wish I had asked Mum where he did put little Richard. If he had lived I wouldn't be around I don't think!

It's awful that even in death these little ones have no dignity or proper care - leaving them till a certain number are available to be buried is awful.

You could see how the Mums on the programme were affected by their loss even so long ago, it's something that rarely fades from memory. I know I was badly affected by the way I was dealt with, not even told when my daughter died till I called back after visiting her to see how she was doing, and told 'Oh she died half an hour after you left here' - no support, I was sent home when she was two days old as I was physically ok. Never got to touch her or hold her or even see her after that last brief visit when I was told to leave the scbu as they needed to give her an injection. In my shock and confusion I have no idea what the injection was for, only that it was to be into her heart?

At least these days there is more understanding and little mementos are made of feet and handprints etc and photos too, and parents are allowed to hold their babies.

Lizx

I am desolate at the stories of these babies and at what has happened to your children.

I cannot say enough how sorry I am.

I am lucky enough to have conceived three babies and to have delivered three healthy children. They are 25, 23 and 19.

All babies, however they die and however they are conceived, should be buried in a Christian grave (assuming they are Christian.) And if not, they should be buried according to the beliefs of their parents.

Dear DavidAlbe,
I am Roman Catholic and am Irish (Rep of) in my 60s and what i wrote here is true, my baby was left on the sluice room window until my husband came to collect her body.The nurse shouted across the ward that they had Baptised her if i wanted to give her a name.I never even saw her, and she was full term.
I know the Catholic Churchs position on the subject.
NO where here is there any mention of abortion either,
What do you think of two priests about two years ago telling the parents of babies born outside Marriage that they were refusing to
Baptize their children, in County Wicklow.Was it the babies fault that they were born,????
Lily.

Man's inhumanity to man - rules have changed/altered somewhat but some in so-called authority stick rigidly to older customs.

Abortion & euthanasia continue to be the UK’s biggest human rights issue.

I do not have any strong religious beliefs. When I heard my daughter had died, I took a sleeping pill and went to bed for a few hours. When I woke up I walked in the rain to a local church, C of E one, and asked to speak to the vicar. It was Sunday evening and services were over. I asked him why a baby who was so wanted and who would have been so loved, was not allowed to live, of course, he had no answer for me and didn't help in any way. Bear in mind I was a young 26 yr old in shock and despair. He left me to walk back home in the rain and I never heard from him again, he didn't even bother to find out if I had got home ok.
When my baby was born I thought she had died as she was 10 weeks too early, I was put in a side ward and sedated I think. Later on a nurse came through and asked if I wanted my baby baptised, she had to go away and find out whether I had a daughter or a son. I agreed to the baptism and told them the names that had been already chosen.
I did at least feel comfortable that she had been baptised altho again the person who did it never came to see me as far as I can remember.

LIzx

My daughter was born 33 years ago ,our hospital had no special care unit so she was taken twenty miles to Glasgow ,I only saw her for a few minutes before she was taken away and I was sent home 24 hours later after being told"this baby will probably not survive,go home and think about your next baby he or she may be the ballerina or championship athlete you would want" I only wanted THAT baby no other ,but she died at four days old. Like a lot of people on here we were distraught and very young so when we were advised(told) that the "normal" sequence of events was to bury her alongside an adult and that it would be wherever they were going on that Saturday we just accepted it and paid the small fee.Strangely ,none of our parents questioned ths either,I did try to find her many times over the years but the undertaker didn't even reply and there seemed no way forward.3 years ago and coming up for her 30th birthday I approaches S.A.N.D.S. and they tried to find her for me ,sadly they too had no success so I will probably never know where she is and my heart breaks when I think of her which is still every day.There is no feeling worse than leaving a maternity unit empty handed ,leaving all your dreams and hopes for your little ones future behind.The work of SANDS is a minor miracle to me when I see that the grieving parents are given the chance to spend time with their babies and to have keepsakes of their short time on earth.In the past people crossed the road to avoid me because they didn't know what to say ,and your childs name was never menioned.My daughter was always spoken of at home and her siblings always knew of her existence ,which is how it should be and how hopefully it is now.So ,for my Baby and all those others I'll light a candle tonight and every night 'til Christmas ,why not join me?

Thank God I never lost a child and that times have changed for the better in these cases. MIL lost a baby, she was never even told the sex but decided the babe was a girl and kept her birthday. It is only right that parents can hold their child and mourn, have a photo and a footprint.

Carrying a child for any length of time - how could one ever be expected to go home and forget? My heart aches for all of you and I think how lucky I have been.

We went to the SANDS balloon release for babies who died this year ,,my daughter and I were both reduced to tears when the toddler standing beside us asked his mum"will our baby get HIS balloon" she replied"of course he will, he'll just pop out from behind that cloud and catch it as it flies by".

Patricia, now that reduced me to tears, the thought of a little cherub popping out to grab his balloon. What a lovely way for the Mum to share the memories with her other child.
As you say, it is the hardest thing to walk away empty armed, and you never lose that feeling, no matter how many children you have afterwards. I was lucky to have my son 8 yrs later but by then I was 35 and the relationship went awry (his father was not my daughter's father, we split a few years after my daughter's birth/death) and so I stayed away from men while my son grew up and never had more children, much as I wanted a big family. I tried hard not be be too protective of my son but it was really difficult, I couldn't believe I had a baby at last and kept thinking something would happen to him and I would lose him too. I am sure my anxiety came through to him tho, he never slept well till he was almost 3 and when he did sleep I was nervous and kept waking to check he was breathing so I was always tired and of course bringing him up alone was hard work.

I am so sorry you were never able to find your little one's resting place, I am so glad I went looking a few days after my daughter was buried, or I might never have known where she was either.

It's a lovely idea to light a candle for all the babies lost to their parents loving arms.
My daughter is always in my thoughts, she is in my heart for ever.

Lizx