Find Ancestors

Yes, that's my feeling.

I'm only investigating these distant twigs because there's so little activity on the boards!

I would also go along with that reasoning.

As you know only too well, the MC would be the way to go but if she is a very distant leaf on a twig, she probably is not that important to your tree.

Hopefully some time in the future something will come up to prove or disprove the marriage :-) :-)

I would think it’s the same person - especially in view of the DoB as per 1939.

Thanks, ErikaH.

I think I shall assume Helen/Ellen Irene is the right woman.

Ellen/Helen Hensley is a very distant leaf on my tree, in any case, and I don't feel it's worth buying the marriage cert.
Her maternal gr-grandmother was a sister of my maternal gr-gr-grandfather.

For what it’s worth, FMP also links the 1929 marriage to the birth. Possibly for geographical reasons as much as anything.

I've given up on Fred Brown.

Now trying to find Violetta's daughter Helen/Ellen from her first marriage.

HENSLEY, HELEN mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in EVESHAM Volume 06C Page 322

1911 :

Ellen Hensley
in the 1911 England Census
Name Ellen Hensley
Age in 1911 4
Estimated Birth Year abt 1907 [abt 1907]
Relation to Head Granddaughter
Gender Female
Birth Place Broadway
Civil parish Winchcombe
County/Island Gloucestershire
Country England
Street Address 3 Chandos Street, Winchcombe
Registration District Number 332
Sub-registration district Guiting
ED, institution, or vessel 10
Piece 15506
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Richard Williams 64 Head
Charles Williams 21 Son
Violetta Hensley 28 Daughter
Sidney Hensley 5 Grandson
Ellen Hensley 4 Granddaughter


1921:

Ellen Hensley
in the 1921 England Census
Name Ellen Hensley
Gender Female
Age 14 Years 5 Months
Relation to Head Daughter
Orphanhood Father Dead
Estimated Birth Year 1907
Birth Place Broadway, Worcestershire, England
Residence Date 1921
Residence Street Address Footbridge, Winchcombe
Residence Place Winchcomb, Gloucestershire, England
Occupation Home Duties
Inhabited Y
Parliamentary Division Gloucestershire Pc, Cirencester & Tewkesbury Div.
Registration District Winchcombe
Registration District Number 332
Sub registration district Guiting
Sub Registration District Number 1
Respondent Violetta Brown
Enumeration District Name Winchcombe Rd
Enumeration District 10
Schedule 10
Schedule Type Code E
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Violette Brown 37 Years 9 Months Head
Sidney Robert Hensley 15 Years 6 Months Son
Ellen Hensley 14 Years 5 Months Daughter
Violet Annie Brown 9 Years 8 Months Daughter
Charles Frederick Brown 5 Years 1 Month Son


But then she seems to disappear.
Ancestry suggests this is her, though she had no middle name previously.
What do you think?:

Marriages Mar 1929 (>99%)
Hensley Ellen I Maycock Evesham 6c 282
Maycock Ernest J Hensley Evesham 6c 282


Ellen J Maycock
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Ellen J Maycock [Ellen J Hill] []
Gender Female
Marital Status Married
Birth Date 4 Jan 1907 <<<<<<<<
Residence Date 1939
Address 2 Brookside
Residence Place Evesham, Worcestershire, England
Occupation Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number 5
Schedule Number 2
Sub Schedule Number 2
Enumeration District Qjem
Borough Evesham
Registration District 379/1
Inferred Spouse
Ernest J Maycock
Household Members (Name) Gender Birth Year
Ernest J Maycock Male 1896
Ellen J Maycock Female 1907
This record is officially closed. (daughter born 1932, mmn Hensley)

They're still at that address in 1955-57 ER.

Ernest died in 1966, and Ellen remarried in 1973:

Marriages Dec 1973 (99%)
HILL RICHARD A MAYCOCK EVESHAM 9D 202
MAYCOCK HELEN I HILL EVESHAM 9D 202



Probable death - though YOB differs:

HILL, HELEN IRENE 1910
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2004 in COLCHESTER (4691B) Reg B89C Entry Number 226


I don't see a birth of any Helen/Ellen Irene Hensley, so I'm wondering if this is indeed Violetta's daughter - without having to buy the marriage cert!

Having said that . . . . . (just for interest, and no help with Violet and Charles's father) -

Returning to the 1871 census posted (24 May @ 20:00) by Alviegal for George Smith and family:

the boarder Frederick T Brown is the illegitimate son of some relation of Ann Smith, whose maiden surname was Bourne - possibly Ann's sister Eliza (1850):

BOURNE, FREDERICK THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 365

I don't see him in later records. Perhaps someone adopted him.


Marriages Dec 1858 (>99%)
Bourne Anne Winchcomb 6a 759
Smith George Winchcomb 6a 759

I suppose it's possible that the enumerator in 1871 misheard "Bourne" and wrote "Brown".

In 1881, Eliza Bourne is housekeeper to Cornelius Kendrick and his parents in London, and she married him in 1891, after the deaths of his parents.
Sadly, Cornelius died in 1892.
I don't see Eliza definitively after that.

Yes, I have those, thanks. Details are in opening post.

Violet Annie born 11/10/1911 at 61 Pretoria Road, Tonyrefair, LLantrisaint.
Father: Frederick Brown, general labourer.
Mother (and informant): Violetta Brown, late Hensley, formerly Williams.
Mother's address: 61 Pretoria Road.

Charles Frederick born 24/4/1916 at Footbridge, Winchcombe.
Father: Fred Brown, general labourer.
Mother (and informant): Violetta Brown, formerly Williams.
Mother's address: Footbridge, Winchcombe.


Thanks for suggesting the Albert Brown family in 1911, LB.
I can't see any link to Fred - but who knows!

I don't think this is a mystery we can solve.
There are far too many Fred/Frederick Browns, and the supposed birth in Helmdon of the man in Winchcombe in 1911 leads nowhere.

In any case, there's no way of proving if he was the children's father or not.

Many thanks to everyone for suggestions and interest shown.

Do you have any births certs for the children

BROWN, VIOLET ANNIE mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1208

BROWN, CHARLES FREDERICK mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1916 J Quarter in WINCHCOMB Volume 06A Page 692

Cowl Lane Winchcombe, Winchcombe, Gloucestershire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Albert Brown Head
Married Male 53 1858 Painter house Winchcombe Glos
Margaret E Brown Wife
Married Female 38 1873 - Winchcombe Glos
Emily Brown Daughter
- Female 9 1902 - Winchcombe Glos
Maud Brown Daughter
- Female 7 1904 - Winchcombe Glos
Violetta Brown Daughter
- Female 5 1906 - Winchcombe Glos
Mabel Annie Brown Daughter
- Female 3 1908 - Winchcombe Glos
Kate Brown Daughter
- Female 1 1910 - Winchcombe Glos

I see there is another Brown family in Winchcomb. could they be related to Fred hence the reason why he went there :-)

Re the 1901 posted by LB:

In 1911, the sons Frederick and Albert are with their aunt Amy Brown at Great Barrington, Burford.
The son William, and their mother Sarah, are in the Union Workhouse, Maugersbury, Stow on the Wold, Glos.

1915: the son Frederick joined the Gloucestershire Regiment, naming his aunt Amy as NOK.
He was killed in 1917.

Going back through the censuses, in 1881 Amy is in Great Rissington with parents John and Elizabeth, and several siblings including Frederick , aged 12.

1891: Frederick's lodging in Eastleach Turville, Gloucestershire, and is a farm labourer.
1893: he married Sarah Ann Smith in Eastleach Martin, Glos. - he's a labourer.

I don't see him in 1911 or 1921.

1939: he died in Great Rissington.

I don't see Sarah or son William after 1911.

Clearly, the family broke up at some point between 1901 and 1911.


However, none of that links up definitely with Fred (said to be widowed) in Winchcombe in 1911!

GENUKI Great Rissngton has a link to transcribed marriages - there is a marriage Of John Brown to elizabeth Brown

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/GreatRissington/GR-MAR3

Great Rissington is in Gloucestershire but the Enumerator has put Oxon, Great Rissington although it is only 1.5 from the County Line

Just for interest - but no help with Fred -

The newspaper article LondonBelle mentioned about young Violet Annie's marriage in 1933:


WINCHCOMBE BRIDE
Miss V. H. Brown Marries Mr. T. L. Stanley
The wedding took place yesterday the Congregational Church, Winchcombe, of Miss Violet Annie Brown, youngest daughter of Mrs. Ching and step-daughter of Mr. R. Ching. of Hailes-street, Winchcombe, and Mr. Thomas Leslie Stanley, second son of Mr. and Mrs. L. Stanley, late of the Bridge Inn, Offenham ...

[and descriptions of bridesmaids' dresses, etc.]

Published: Thursday 03 August 1933
Newspaper: Gloucestershire Echo
County: Gloucestershire, England

Not sure whether this 1901 Census is of any significance but I'm posting it as you never know :-)

Longdoles Cottages, East End, Fairford, Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England

Frederick Brown Head Married Male 31 1870 Agricultural labourer Oxfordshire, England
Sarah A Brown Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Gloucestershire, England
Frederick Brown Son - Male 4 1897 - Down Ampney, Wiltshire, England
Albert Brown Son - Male 2 1899 - Fairford, Gloucestershire, England
William Brown Son - Male 0 1901 - Fairford, Gloucestershire, England


Edit: Ancestry says place of birth is Great Rissington, Oxfordshire

The newspaper article about Miss V Henseley doesn't help us, unfortunately.


CIRENCESTER TRADERS’ ASSOCIATION

... and the party went off with every success. The prize takers for whist were : Ladies. 1 Mrs. J. Beesley. 2 Miss V. Henseley. 3 Mrs. Pope; gentlemen. 1 Mrs. O. F. Ingram (playing gentleman). 2 Mrs. (playing gentleman). 3 Mr. W. J Turner. . . . . . . "

Published: Friday 26 February 1926
Newspaper: Gloucestershire Echo
County: Gloucestershire, England

Regarding Londonbelke’s comment about the Ixfirdshire connection. Whilst researching ancestors in the area I came across the comment that that area across the borders was nicknamed Banburyshire.
Made a lot of sense.

This the marriage for Violet in 1933, there is a newspaper article about the wedding

Marriages Sep 1933
Brown Violet A Stanley Winchcomb 6a 1195
Stanley Thomas L Brown Winchcomb 6a 1195

Can someone view this to establish if it's the same Violet reverting back to first/only marriage surname?

Name Miss V. Henseley
Topic Other
Residence Date 26 Feb 1926
Residence Place Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Publication Date 26 Feb 1926
Publication Place Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Newspaper Title The Gloucestershire Echo

Any other newspaper archives for Fred Brown (ie convictions)

I've been briefly looking at military records on Fold3 and the closest I've managed so far is:
+ 426202 Fred Brown RAMC with an 1870 DOB. Discharge Date 21 Mar 1919
- 25 Denmark Road, Aylstone Park, Leicester
- Married
Personally, I don't think it's the correct Fred

I've also unsuccessfully tried to find the Brown children as dependents and Violetta/e as a named spouse on Pension/Service records.