Military Chat

Jink20 thank you very much for all this information. My Grandad died when I was two and my Aunt told me he never talked about his experience and was a very kind caring and loving man. What an amazing generation. I will follow up on all of the links and am so grateful for your assistance which now makes it all very real. Christine

War Diaries for 1st Battalion Rifles - (James) appear only to be available at Kew

WO 166/4512 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own).1939 Sept.- 1941 Sept.
WO 167/813 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 1940 May
WO 169/1741 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 1941 Sept.- Dec.
WO 169/5054 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 1942 Jan.- Dec.
WO 169/10285 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 1943 Jan.- Dec.
WO 171/1358 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 1944 Jan.- Dec.
WO 171/5255 1 Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 1945 Jan.-Dec.

Forgot to mention

The Rifle Brigade Chronicle for 1914; 1915; 1916; 1917 (25th-28th Year) [British Army]
by Colonel Willoughby Verner (Editor)

https://archive.org/details/1915to1917riflebrigadechronicle

Nicholas' Pension record is the most complete record of his service available.


He was issued 2 Service numbers according to his Medal Index Card, however 4 are recorded on his UK, WWI, Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923
These 4 number included:

Tr13/13683- Reserve/Training ,13th Battalion, Rifles on initial entry
TR denotes Training Reserve
However, his pension record shows transfer to 14th Battalion 12/6/1916
Clerical error?

S/21191+ S/25857 - Rifles Battalions, new number issued when he changed Battalion
S denotes General Service. Nicholas transferred to 11th Battalion ,Rifles, 3/10/1916

280338- Labour Corps
2 medals awarded whilst serving with the Labour Corps. BritishWar Medal and the Victory Medal.

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Regarding where he was at the time of his injury this can be narrowed down.

Battalion's provided War Diaries which recorded their day to day events. This included their location, what actions took place, movements etc

The War Diary for the 11th Battalion, The Rifles for the day of Nicholas wounding is available on Ancestry and here:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054084
WO 95/2116/2
This is FREE to download after registration/sign in.
The WO 95 ref above is for several months and covers the date of N. injury.

The War Diary also shows that the Battalion was in the Les Boeufs sector "Trenches" on the 6th. Nicholas is not mentioned by name but would appear to make up the " 2 OR injured" entry. ( 2 Other Ranks)

Maps of the area are available to view on
https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/trenchmapper-public/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwmYCzBhA6EiwAxFwfgBDT_u89xJVOeuXcMfjwreGsaYU7l3IozsCTtlqPqJk1VRxSHvMmMhoChWsQAvD_BwE
Just search for the Trench names and click on the results to the view the maps
Blue lines denote Allied trenches, Red German

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Order of Battle of Divisions Part 3A New Army Divisions (9-26) (History of the Great War based on Official Documents) by Major A F Becke

An ORBAT is a hierarchial ledger outiining which larger formation a Regiment served with. In Nicholas' case 11 Battalion Rifles =59th Brigade=20th (Light) Division

Register and Sign In to view the record FREE here
https://archive.org/details/order-battle-divisions-p-3-a

The ORBAT may give you more context when used in conjunction with the War Diary

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At the time of his injury Nicholas was collected by 60FA , 60 Field Ambulance, a 20th Division resource and this accounts for entry dated 10th March 1916. Following his injury in the field they conveyed him to to what appears to be Le Havre CCS ,(Casualty Clearing Station) ,before another journey to 9 General Hospital , Rouen. Transferred aboard the Australian Hospital Ship "Warilda" and returned to England.
On a side note the Warilda was sunk, in the Channel, by a German U-boat in 1918 with the loss of 123 souls.

Following his recovery Nicholas transferred between several Argicultural Companies, , which formed part of the Labour Corps, before discharge on 24/09/1919. Address on discharge listed as Braeside, Bridge of Dee, Aberdeen.

If you would like to know more information about the Labour Corps you can find it here

No labour, no battle : military labour during the First World War by Starling, John

https://archive.org/details/nolabournobattle0000star

Thank you. I am registered with Scotland’s people … well I was.

If you take a free trial on Ancestry or elsewhere, remember to cancel it in good time before the end date, or a full subscription will be taken automatically - unless you're happy with that, of course.

You'll almost certainly find Ancestry (for example) much better than GR for all family tree research.

GR does now have Scottish censuses, but no births/deaths/marriages.
As you'll know already, you need Scotland's People for those - though Ancestry has some.

Hello Argyle Gran I have been searching through my files and have found lots of previous assistance from you so thank you for your help once again. I must confess After a long period of inaction I am still trying to remember how to use this site. As I am not a member of Ancestry or FMP I think ErikaH suggestion is a great idea. Thank you ErikaH. As I am reaching my dotage haha I am attempting to put all my research in some kind of order.

Do you have a subscription to either Ancestry or FMP?

If you don’t’, just take out a free trial with one of them and download the WW1 records for de Ros

WW2 was less than 100 years ago, so records are not freely available.

Lots of info on threads on here about how to apply for them

This is all I can see on Ancestry for your father re his WW2 service - not his full service record.
I've submitted a correction to the transcription of his name.

Jemes, Melrose, Fitzgerald De Ros
in the UK, British Army World War II Medal Cards, 1939-1945
Name Jemes, Melrose, Fitzgerald De Ros
Rank Rifleman
Birth Date 1921
Award Date 25 Feb 1949
Discharge Date 1 Nov 1947
Applicant's Delivery Address The Willows London Rd, Billericay Essex
Service Group Number 35 D. R.
Class of Release A
Service Number 6920600
Regiment 1st Bn. the Rifle Brigade.
Stars/Medals Issued 1939-45; Africa; War

WW2 service records are not generally online anywhere, though a few bits and pieces are.

GR is not the best site for research of any records. Most of us here use either Ancestry or FMP for our main research - and certainly for service records.

Many service records on Ancestry now require an extra sub to Fold3 to view - but you're lucky! Nicholas's record is entirely viewable (and printable) without extra sub.

Thank you for this information. Due to circumstances I have had a big gap since I was last researching my family history so I had forgotten this. I have only seen a service record for my Dad’s cousin who served in the New Zealand RAF so not sure what information to expect. It was so straight forward to get that service record. Ancestry appears to have more information than this site so I should probably join that as well. I am also hoping to find my Dad’s army record WW2 who also served in the Rifle Brigade. He was shot through the knee in the desert. James Melrose Fitzgerald de Ros. DOB 19 07 1921 in Aberdeen but family moved to Essex. Are WW2 records on Ancestry as well.?

On your previous thread about Nicholas , Rambling Rose posted this (27 Jun 2019 14:22) :


Just for ref on FMP there are also service records under the surname given as "Deros", gives details on eye injury march 16th 1917, and loss of eye.

British Army Service Records
First name(s) Nicholas Fitzgerald
Last name Deros
Birth year -
Birth town Salford
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Service number 280338
Regiment Gordon Highlanders
Unit / Battalion 372nd Agricultural Company
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'
Archive
The National Archives
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory First World War
Collections from Great Britain, UK None


Link to that thread:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1378279

ADDED:

Ancestry has 23 pages of service record for him - name given as Nicholas Fitzgerald de Ross.
If you have access to Ancestry, just print all those pages .

It's also on FMP.

Hello I have not checked anywhere as yet. I was going to the Government site. I have my grandad’s identity discs (resembles leather but not pliable) and the original medical papers stating his injuries and details of joining the labour corp. Jink20 I would be very grateful for any information. My Grandfather’s name was Nicholas Fitzgerald de Ros on his records he is also shown as N F De Ros and N F De Ross. On his statement of disability it states he had loss of right eye, wounds to right arm and jaw caused by gunfire France 6th March1917. He joined the Rifle Brigade 8th June 1916 at Stratford East London. Number on identity disc is 25857 on the other disc S/25857 and labour corp 280338. Thank you for your responses everyone

WW1 should be on FMP if the records have survived……70% didn’t

One application. Second service number should appear on his record showing him having been re-numbered.
If you post his Service numbers I will look on Fold3/Ancestry for documentation, if you wish.

Have you checked to see if they are onl FMP or Ancestry?

Where did you find the service numbers?

Thank you

I don't know - but I think they would be linked.

Before you apply, try asking advice from the National Archives, which now hold most of the WW1 records:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact-us/

Hello my Grandad was in the Rifle Brigade during WE1 and was injured in France. After recovering he joined the Gordon Highlanders 372nd Agricultural Company. I have one army service number for the Rifle Brigade and another number for the Gordon Highlanders. I would like to get a copy of his service record so should I make 2 applications for the different service numbers or would they be linked? Thank you in anticipation Christine