General Chat

John yet again your pompous posting infuriates me.
And since when did the church teach people to speak properly?
It is people like you that turn others against the church (assuming you even go).
It is people like Cynthia that give hope and make us realise that other rantings and generalisations are not what the church is all about!

Cynthia :-) Had forgotten you saying about "Sunday only". But that gives such a good grounding. You meet a lot of nice people, learn how to speak properly and listen.

That was what I missed out on for first 36 years of my life. I did go to Sunday School for about 4 years and my parents were thoroughly decent people. And I did attend a Welsh speaking chapel in Harrow in London about 1975, and we would all pile into cars after to go down to central London to sing rugby songs lustily in the Prince of Wales in Trafalgar Square area..

I did feel like a fish out of water when I first forced myself to attend church about 1980. I wanted to go, but could not understand the Bible readings, knew hardly any of the hymns and the sermons appeared to be so deadly boring in those days.

Now I feel pretty confident in church and chapel, even amongst people who know vastly more than I do. And, as I approach retirement in 6 months time and am still quite fit and strong, a couple of avenues are opening to serve my Maker more fully. One of them in the Valleys, the other far, far away. Both lay ie no money :-( It is still an incredible journey for me, this Christian life.

True, I have been in the Christian fold since childhood but, as I said earlier, it was very much an 'only on a Sunday' type of faith for very many years. Then things changed.


I agree with Guinevere about the blandness of the church at the moment. I can only speak for the Anglican church really, but we could certainly do with some strong and gutsy leadership - the type of leadership which guides/encourages/inspires and admonishes when necessary.

First point is that both Cynthia and I are obviously very committed Christians.
Second, Cynthia sounds absolutely lovely and had been in the Christian fold since childhood by the sound of things (parents in Sally Army etc). I am a Johnny come lately, and have quite a short temper and am nowhere near as nice as Cynthia (had anyone already spotted that?).
Third, the church is very broad and can easily accomodate two such different people and use us both.
Fourth, I totally agree with Gwynne. We don't get excited enough about worldly things, services can often be same old same old, we are too bland at times.

Rev William Grimshaw became Vicar of Haworth in 1742(about a century before Patrick Bronte or Brunty). In those days, it was the law that people attended church. Grimshaw was a big and strong man and used to get extremely angry with some of his parishioners who preferred to sit out his service in the Black Bull opposite.

Grimshaw would say prayers at the start of service and then leave the readings and hymns to be organised by his curate and he would stride across to The Black Bull. Perhaps there were six of his parishioners drinking. He would do the journey from church 3 times, with a man under each arm on his return journey, their feet dangling off the ground. And he would place all six men on a pew. Then he would preach his sermon.:-)

You're confused Guinevere? That makes two of us..... :-S You know I don't like politics...........sob.


I really have to say that I am not the originator of this thread - it was John who posted it. I do, however, enjoy chatting on here about the thing which is the mainstay of my life.

If, for any reason, John decides to delete this thread, I would happily start another one - even if it does mean talking to myself occasionally. :-D


Guinevere - there is indeed the concept of 'righteous anger', although those words are not used in the bible. Personally I prefer the wording of 'righteous indignation'.


To be 'righteous' is to act in accordance with holiness, morality, guiltlessness etc. and to have great anger or indignation when something goes against them - a sense of injustice in those things.


Jesus was angry with the money changers and rightly so. They were turning a holy place into a market - the sense of holiness and worship was being lost.


He was angry with the Pharisees because of their hard attitude - but he didn't want to wreak revenge upon them in fact, he felt sorry for them.


Lashing out at someone or something because one is in a temper, or is feeling bitter or thwarted about something, is not righteous indignation and can lead to sin.


I guess I am fortunate in that I have been blessed with a patient nature and very rarely get angry.....BUT....when faced with a moral or spiritual injustice then......watch me ;-)


I love the saying from the bible........"Be angry yet do not sin - do not let the sun go down on your anger".



A visitor has just popped in for a coffee.......our local friendly RC priest! Funnily enough, he has just mentioned that he always prays as soon as he wakes....


His first prayer is "Oh God, it's morning............." :-D

His next response is a much more traditional and appropriate greeting to the day!

He has a great sense of humour...... :-D

Now I must go and chat to him........

I'm a bit confused.

From what I've read of the bible both God and Jesus could get quite angry. And isn't there a concept of "Righteous Anger"?

I'm not a fan of the increasingly bland Christianity I see today. I was raised Welsh Chapel and our minister could certainly get quite cross.

I certainly don't want to spoil anybody's enjoyment of this thread and prefer to keep it non-contentious as I know Cynthia does.

I think there is a difference between showing charity (or unconditional love) for someone and judging the ACTIONS of that person.

It is difficult (very difficult) to love some politicos as people. Tony Blair, for example. Now I don't know if he was right or wrong to go into Iraq and I'm sure he was under intense pressure from George Bush and daddy. But he sexed up a report (probably openly lied to Commons) to get support from Tories and his divided side of the Commons.

I think deep down I can love Tony Blair as a person. I am sure I don't hate him, or Mrs T or anybody else as a person. Do we as Christians not comment on (nay, even hate) these actions of politicians though? Particularly if they directly affect the vulnerable and the children in our society? I will promise to try to keep politics off this thread.

I'm known as being a-religious ............

............ but I had a darned good grounding in Anglican theology, by virtue of attending an Anglican church school from age 4 to 11.

There was no attention paid to how young we were when the vicar came to give us lessons, nor when he preached during our once weekly attendance at a morning service in the church

We were also taught very firmly about Christian charity, and say no evil about anyone. That was in addition to what our parents taught us

Then I went to a state Grammar School, where we had religious instruction twice weekly for 2 years ................. given by a Welsh tub thumping Methodist Minister, and I mean that literally!. Then we got a much calmer, and boring, Anglican teacher, and the lessons dropped to once a week, before we were able to drop Religious Instruction for good in the 4th year.


Morning hymns were the saving grace!


Meanwhile, OH's grandfather was a Welsh Methodist minister, entered the ministry late after an apprenticeship of 7 years in furniture building, and worked the North Wales circuit. He changed parishes every 3 years ............... and only one of the manses he lived in from about 1902 to his death in 1937 had anything other than an earth floor

My m-i-l had wonderful stories of how she and her 2 siblings managed to avoid signing the pledge, as they were supposed to do every year once they reached a certain age. She became a devout Anglican after marrying.


No, I do not go to church, except for baptisms, marriages and burials.

Yes, I do understand a lot of theology, and what the church means to people.

John ................

your views re that politician is the absolute reverse from what I understood her to have done

and, I think if you really look back at the state of the UK in 178 and 1979, you may also see something different.

I was horrified when I googled last night, at some of the images I saw of what she faced when she came in to power in March 1979. Leicester Square filled with garbage, in bags and strewn around, because of a strike. Tales of bodies piling up in mortuaries because grave diggers were on illegal strike.20% inflation. Unions demanding salary increases of 20 or 30%. Businesses closing or leaving the country. On and on it went.

The UK would not have survived much longer under those conditions.

You were very close to becoming a Third World country.

Those of us overseas watched with horror.


If what she did was so very bad, why has no subsequent government, Labour or Tory, ever repealed them???


In the meantime, like others, I think you displayed less than Christian charity in your words on this thread .................


never speak ill of the dead

show charity to others



.............. and also that politics really has no place on this thread.

I must have said this before!
Mum and family walked at least times twice a day on a Sunday to Chapel the opposite side of the village up very steep hill.,about a mile,

Mum used to say.....
You don't need to attend the Chapel every Sunday to be a Christian [ and in her later years wasnt' able to as she used to , there were no services in the village.]
If you are a believer you can make your prayers at anytime at home or in a chapel or church ,you must live your life as you believe it to be.

Why have poliiticans come into this thread ? Christians they may be but,
Please leave politics out.

In no way do I want Cynthia's thread changed from what she wants it to be.

Take care all
Sandie'x

Roy and Errol. Getting very tired, and not sure what you are both getting at. Will have a proper look in morning when refreshed. Nice to see you both on this thread :-)

Sorry John, I have tried to stay off this thread but

That a daughter of a Methodist local preacher should be the architect of the opposite of what Jesus wanted seems to me to have been a gross betrayal of her responsibilities. And I feel the same about (Blair and Brown). Nothing to do with hatred for them. Just for their actions.

:-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S :-S

Away and gone

Roy

John, may I humbly suggest that you read what you have just written and pray for a little guidance.

I suppose my feelings are strong about some politicians, Cynthia. And I do ask God for help in forming my views about them and what they do.

I am pretty certain that God is very very unhappy with many of the actions of our politicians. Some of our MPs and ex-MPs are in prison for fraud, we have just had a major expenses scandal, powerful politicians and civil servants seem to be heavily involved in child abuse scandal.

Jesus cared for children, cared for the poor. Government policies have led to a huge number of people having to claim benefits and credits to live (when we thought we were moving away from means testing). And children are left alone because their parent or parents has to go out to work and cannot afford child care. All this is happening in the country with the sixth greatest assets per head of population.

That a daughter of a Methodist local preacher should be the architect of the opposite of what Jesus wanted seems to me to have been a gross betrayal of her responsibilities. And I feel the same about Blair and Brown. Nothing to do with hatred for them. Just for their actions.

I would gently like to suggest then John, that when you are next having a conversation with God, you ask for advice on how to deal with the current political conversation taking place on these boards. Maybe ask Him to guide your words and calm your thoughts.


It seems as though your feelings are so strong that you are leaving Him out of the equation. HE needs to be right in there with you and YOU need to have Him there.




I rarely drop to my knees these days either.......mainly because it's so hard to get up again!! :-D

Cynthia and others. Have read through recent posts and some very nice thoughts. And I don't mind the admonitions either.

I started my Christian life in 1982 and was 36. Not a Christian family, so really found myself swimming in deep water for many years. I would stand up when others sat down, I would know few of the hymns, I would look for Hebrews and Jude in the Old Testament.

I am very enthusiastic about the merits of Jesus and love to link Old Testament passages with new. I do very little praying in any formal manner. I am often asked to pray publicly and can do that without notes, but seldom drop down at the side of teh bed like I did as a boy. But I do talk to God regularly. Even when I drive or walk I have a conversation. I feel he listens all the time and helps me. I try to be a 24/7 Christian.

I am sure the more you grow in grace, the more you realise the depth of your sin. One of the most perfect men in this world (Rev John Fletcher of Madely, Salop 1729-1785) frequently wrote that he was the worst of sinners. I just think the closer you get to heaven, the more you realise you fall short of the example of Jesus. And the more you think you do not deserve to be treated by God as co-equal with your Saviour. Tis mystery all, the Immortal dies.

It's so nice to hear these happy reminiscences....thank you everyone. :-)

Cynthia. My friends Mother was an officer in the SA, such a lovely wise and gentle lady, but good sense of humour too. When I was first married she used to turn up wth the SA band opposite my house on Sunday mornings siniging with great gusto I have so many happy memories.

Believe it or not, and he doesn't care to be reminded. I met my OH in church. He was a young artificer apprentice in the R Navy and away from home. His Mum was a Methodist and told him to go to church. As I have said, we had a big youth group, mainly because we were just down the road from HMS Collingwood so, instead of trailing into town to the Methodist church he came to ours. So, yes I have lots of memories of first sunday School and then Church - and not all religious, but all good memories.

I hadn't thought about when I had gone to church or Sunday school
for years Ann and wonderful memories when thinking back.