General Chat

I dont think so John 10/10 I live by my human instincts as what I think is right towards others and not from what I see as just words from a book of something I do not belive in. :-D :-D.

"Jesus told the thief that today he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that Jesus first descended into hell"

Sorry, Ruby. Noticed when I read through my reply that I had not tackled your key question. Lazarus was told he would be with Jesus in heaven also. I think this is when the belief of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (three in one) really applies.

"I and the Father are one" said Jesus to Pharisee leaders in gate of Temple. And they got very angry and tried to arrest him. So it is a person of God (the second personality, if you like) who is wrestling in hell with the devil. But the thief is with the Father that day in paradise above - hence "you will be with me in paradise TODAY". Although we pray about three distinct personalities of God, they are indivisible. Three in One, One in three. :-)

Ruby. What you describe about house groups is exactly how Wesley organised his (edit) Methodist Society within C of E. His objective was to strengthen the Anglican Communion, not weaken it. His members would be expected to attend their local parish church in the morning and take communion, then assemble in small classes to learn in the afternoon, to discuss the sermon and pray and search scriptures. And no doubt have a biscuit and a cuppa. I think each member paid a penny a week. And many could not afford a penny so class leader or a wealthier member of the class had to stump up the money for the poorer ones.

Of course, it put great pressure on the Vicar. He would be asked some quite deep theological questions by an ag lab as people left church. And quite a few Vicars had a head religion but did not have any great depth of spiritual understanding.

And the question you have asked is so deep and so important. I wonder if there is a simple answer. You may get many. I have my view, but it may be very wrong.

I think Jesus descended to hell for 3 days (Friday night, all Saturday, early hours of Sunday). He was very God, made human with a sinful nature yet he never ever sinned. He had already been tested by the devil. Now he actually went down into Hades and fought ferociously with him. The devil represents death and the last great enemy death was defeated. Routed. So no one any more needs to fear being defeated by death - the grave no longer held any terrors for those who knew (or would come to know) Jesus as their brother.

So the battle of Armageddon (which is to be played out at the end of the world) had already been won when Jesus rose from death that first Easter morning . For some reason, the devil is still allowed to petulantly flay his tail in our day. Many are attracted to him, but a few are not. And it is those few who are the "saved" remnant in our generation. And I think God is waiting for all his children (all the brothers and sisters of Christ) to be saved from the wiles of the devil. To be refined and prepared for heaven. There are still some he wants in our generation, and possibly the next one too.

And in the last day, all the living and the dead will be given perfect bodies and will rise to meet Jesus (who I think will be like the Jesus of Revelation - very fearsome looking, not a meek and mild shepherd). And Jesus will judge us all - nobody can escape his judgement. Those who have died in Christ, whose souls are already in heaven, will know their fate already. Perfect souls will be united with perfect bodies - free of pain, free of wrinkles, free of age. Perfect - as God intends us to be for eternity.

Hello everyone,

I too enjoy reading this thread - hope you'll allow me to add my bit. With John's mention today of John Wesley and Home Groups, I would like to tell you of my experience with a Home study group.

I am a member of a small country Methodist church, and I live in S. Carolina, having left my dear old home in Wiltshire in 1962. I attended chapel occasionally over the years, then, about 12 years ago, joined a small Home study group. I was very nervous at first, and quickly realized that, even with all the RI at school, and many years of Sunday school as a child, my knowledge of the Bible was minimal. I soon felt comfortable in asking questions, and came to enjoy our little Bible study time immensely. We met at a friend's house every Tue. morning for an hour and a half - 30 mins. chatting and an hour of study, 7 of us, around the kitchen table.. Once a month we had lunch together - usually a crock pot or two of soup or chili and wonderful desserts. Since we were all retirees, it was inevitable that members would probably pass away, and we disbanded about two years ago.

Shortly afterwards I joined a Sunday school class at church. We have classes for all age groups, and my class has about 12 participants. It's a great group, and our teacher is very knowledgeable. We meet for an hour before church, and we are all there to help one another. Our lesson yesterday was from Thess. 4 & 5. concerning Christ's return. We got into a discussion about Paradise. Is it above or below the earth? Jesus told the thief that today he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that Jesus first descended into hell, so it would seem that it must be below the earth. If anyone can explain it to me, please do so in simple terms. I have always understood that when I die, my soul will be immediately with Christ, which would be in Heaven? However, when Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise first to join Him, so does that mean that my soul will actually be with my remains, in the grave? I'm sure we all have our own understanding of it. Didn't mean to gabble on so.
Ruby.

Just a couple of quick points before I climb to bedsville.

Susan wiv. Thanks, honest. Absolutely no offence taken :-)

Cynthia - not an office holder? I think we would call your leadership involvement that of an office holder. It involves training of various forms. I have just done training in protecting the vulnerable with worship leaders, youth leaders, fellow local preachers, Sunday School teachers - we were all called office holders.

Kay. I think you could manage 10/10 judging by what you wrote. But commandments get very much simpler to remember but very much harder to obey in the New Testament :-( :-(

http://www.anglican-methodist.org.uk/history.htm

Found the link. Ann, I also remember that church in Central M Keynes - near M & S. and Library.

Have just been digging through some of the 74pp of a working document to bring Methodists back into the Anglican fold (we were kicked out of communion about 1800 - don't want to rake over old ground :-)). The writer ( a leading Anglican) said it was disgrace that St Paul had spent so much time and effort to stop the churches in Rome, Corinth, Thessalonica and Ephesus dividing and we split over a gnat's breath. Wesley always wanted Methodists to attend parish church in the morning and Methodist chapels and house groups in afternoon (so as not to clash with services in parish church).

I love Methodism. I breathe it. But I also love other denominations almost as much. And in India they did away with all these denominations and came together in CSI and CNI (Church of Southern India and Church of Northern India). All Protestant denominations worship together - Baptist pastors and Methodist Ministers were accepted as Anglican priests, local lay preachers were accepted as lay readers. And it seems to work well - churches are really bulging everywhere. :-) :-)

My daughter in law goes to a church in M Keynes which is ecumenical. I believe the denominations that worship there are Anglican, Baptist, what I still know as Congregational (But I know they have changed their name) and not sure about Methodist. I have been to services there and it is a lovely friendly, relaxed church which seems to maintain the elements of all the churches.

Glad you found the site, Cynthia, even though the link went awry. :)


John, re

(1) there was a working party trying to find a way of the Methodists and Church of England joining together and eventually forming one denomination.

I understand that discussions are ongoing.

(2) Anglican priests are often trained in Methodist theological colleges and Methodist Ministers are often trained in Anglican colleges. Both churches accept the training of the other.

Concerning training for clergy:
Sarum College, Salisbury http://www.sarum.ac.uk/ is where my husband trained for the NSM (non-stipendiary) URC (United Reformed Church) ministry; at the time of his training, his fellow students were URC, Anglican and Methodists.

Not so long ago there was a working party trying to find a way of the Methodists and Church of England joining together and eventually forming one denomination. Haven't heard much of that since I moved down to S Wales 6 years ago, but they were very keen on it in parts of Northants where I previously worshipped. In Silverstone, we would have joint evening services and Methodist local preachers and our Minister would preach to Anglicans and the Canon would preach to us Methodists. Some weeks we would be in the parish church, others in the Methodist chapel 200 yards up the road. We gelled very well with Anglicans there. Mind, both the Canon and her husband had been Methodists in their early life.

Anglican priests are often trained in Methodist theological colleges and Methodist Ministers are often trained in Anglican colleges. Both churches accept the training of the other.

It has been said that the Methodist Church has taken all the best bits of the Church of England. The annual Covenant Service in January, for example, was something that John Wesley discovered was introduced by Rev Alleyn in 17th century and ditched by the Anglican Church a century or so later.

There ya are Cyn,,,,,,we have one common ground,,,

mind I dont know about all ten,,,,maybe 6/10 aint bad,,,,, ;-) :-D :-D :-D.

I must admit I did find it somewhat presumptuous and inaccurate.

Different denominations can often be a gulf apart.

Hang on a mo John........

I am not at all sure we would settle into each other's churches. Whilst the theology is the same, I think you would feel restricted by the 'due rites and ceremonies' which I enjoy, and I would not be happy in your 'free for all' atmosphere.

I have experienced free church worship but much prefer the Anglican way of worship.

Methodism goes very much with the Service of the Word whereas, Anglicanism is much more sacramental.


As for the lectionary which each church uses.....they may be similar but not the same.


Also, I am not an office holder in any way shape or form - just a willing servant.


Joy - that link doesn't work for me but I found the event any way........looks like a great idea...... :-D


Kay......... :-D All I can say is, that some of us don't actually find commitment or ritual a burden.....more of a blessing really. Hopefully, we all also show kindness, take our morals from the example of the Ten Commandments and live for the good of others........ :-D

well my church is in the league of none belivers,

we are not burdened by commitment,not burdened by a troubled mind for something we did or didnt do,we are free from a timetable,,,,,and are free from having to to peform any ritual ....... :-D :-D :-D :-D.

;-),

but we are free to show humanity,kindness,have good thoughts,be moral and live for our own good. ;-)

do you wanna join John........ :-D :-D :-D :-D.

Just under four weeks to Pentecost. I have just learned about the sixth year of Pentecost Festival http://www.pentecostfestival.co.uk/

I agree with Kitty although it would be a pity to lose this thread I feel that more people would add to it if it belonged to Cynthia.....no offence John :-)

Kay. I can assure you Cynthia and I are both churchgoers. I would settle in her church very well, and she would settle into mine. Mind you, I think Cynthia would be an asset anywhere :-D

We both hold office as well, so are very committed. We are on the same journey, just that I am a long way behind up till now.

Methodism grew out of Church of England, and very many of our traditions (and the Lectionary) are the same. That is why I think it would be very nice if one of two churchgoers from other denominations said a little about their services as well.

I think this thread has gelled along ok in parts ,,,,,if those that arent of a religious nature leave it to those that are and tolerate each othe.......Cynthia and John have a common ground,

Neither could be churchgoers,but both come across as very sincere in their beliefs.

I think it would be a pity for this thread to be deleted, mostly it has been harmonious and informing. I always like to read about Cynthia's views and her church, and I also find some of John's posts interesting when he doesn't have his preachy hat too firmly on.
The shame is on people who come on the thread to either wind up or ridicule, not sure what. OK John aggravates some people, not unusual for that to happen but keeping it off this thread is the best thing.

Not to worry Lily.......I'm like you......happy to talk about my beliefs when the time is appropriate but do not want to come over as pious......it tends to put people 'off' rather than interest them. :-)

I'm sorry Cynthia, I shouldn't have posted that! particularly as I am a practising Anglican, warts and all! but I do try and keep my religeous beliefs to myself unless somebody particularly asks me, and 'not go on about it'. I just find certain comments santimonious and frankly yuk! Incidentally my favorite service is Evensong, a restful and beautiful service - no preaching!!!