General Chat

Guinevere, seeing as how Tony Blair was in power in 1997 I should think that comment would do David Cameron no harm at all.

As I've said before, whatever happened to Blair's mantra "Tough on Crime, Tough on the Causes of Crime?" and what punishment did his own son receive when he was found in Leicester Square lying flat on his face drunk?

This is well worth a read, right from the front line, and the human effect it has had on our police. I don't think Cameron will want to hear this either, but maybe that's why he's not talking directly to police.

http://wintsays.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/thank-you/

Well worth reading and it made me cry to be honest.

“If the police in 1997 had been pulled back from the assertive policing, the community-based policing could have reduced crime and disorder and improved race relations. Instead we have the situations we find ourselves in now.”

A quote from William Bratton - not sure that's what Cameron will want to hear.

Gwynne

Cameron just can't win - he was the individual criticised for not taking firmer control at the start of the rioting - he's on the defensive.

He's also in the forces' sights re the proposed cuts.

He also has a Home Secretary who has trouble communicating effectively.

Goodness knows how many consultations have been held re lawlessness,community policing,youth policy etc., etc., over the past decades nothing moves forward when we have the Lords sticking their beaks in.

Sue

He has been invited to advise the government on the control of gangs. I don't think that is a bad thing, especially as the gangs have grown more powerful over the years without any intervention. Its good that David Cameron is showing some leadership.

Vera

I'm not getting knickers in a twist over Bratton coming over here to advise. I'd just like to have seen Cameron listen to our own police first. It's quite probably that they would be able to tell him more than Bratton would about our own problems.

I think it's great that lots of people around the world are willing to put their ideas forward to help us fight crime, and Bratton's record speaks for itself.

The point of the thread is not the fact that Bratton is coming over to advise. :-)

I think knickers are getting in a twist over it Sue, because DC is trying to take credit for something he hasn't done re policing (EDIT ...of the riots) ...and is now trying to look as if he is 'doing something'.

Bringing in an 'expert' from somewhere else is fine, providing
all the relevant parties are involved in the discussions, but it seems police chiefs feel he is going over their heads and is not listening to 'the experts' at home.

Rose (not a Tory ;-) )

Don't know why knickers are getting in a twist over this:

Mr Bratton is no stranger to UK policing, having teamed up with British officers at other times over the past 20 years.

In 2009, the Queen awarded him the honorary title of Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.

Sue (a Tory)

I think today the police need protection from guns,knifes and personal assults while carrying out their duties to protect joe public,visual presence doesnt always deter,no fear of the law in some areas.

I wouldnt like to be a beat police person in an area known for weapon crime and neither would I like to have a family member walking the beat.

Absolutely JBA. One of the worst things the police managers did was to remove police from patrolling the streets and put them all in squad cars. There are several side streets and alleyways where by the time the patrol car arrives, the perpetrators have "legged it" over the wall and away. Keep the cars for motorway and main road traffic policing and use the bobbies on the beat to provide a visible presence. That way, they may stand a chance of deterring crime rather than always being on the back foot. I'm sure in the end it would actually be more cost effective than having to repair or replace cars.

i think if they got rid of the police at the top of the pile
they could easy save enough for those on the beat
we need more police on the street been seen to be doing something



as for Cameron i am still giving him a chance early days yet

Does it really matter where the good ideas come from.....Conservative, Labour or Liberal etc.? While political parties continue to take potshots at each other simply to score points, we'll never get anywhere.

The good thing about the coalition is that for once the liberal minded who have previously adopted a "laissez-faire" attitude and have actually blocked Parliamentary attempts to make society more responsible, are now themselves jointly responsible for running the country.

And, PLEASE, can we once and for all dispel the urban myth that only the Labour party and left wingers care about our country.

Remember, these Senior Policemen are the same ones who did a lot of Backstabbing and got rid of the Policeman from up North ( think it was Middlesborough ) when his clear up rate was to good. I now think he is the Mayor of somewhere.I expect the name is known to somebody on here.so I think their View is a bit suspect ( My Opinion) and they seem to spend more time looking after the CPO Association and being PC.Than doing the job WE pay them to do.**M**.

"Policing costs £283 per person
annually in the United Kingdom. This amounts to over 3 per cent of the UK’s total annual public sector expenditure"

"New York
The per-capita cost of policing this year is $238, if the budget is approved."

Don't know if there are any conclusions to be drawn but I thought it was interesting.

I have to hold my hands up and say that police numbers aren't my specialised chosen subject.....I shall endeavour to pay more attention and read up on it a bit more....

But in terms of Cameron speaking with Bill Bratton....I just don't see what the big deal is x

I dont' have a problem in taking lessons from this person, my point it, it is not up to Cameron to do it. He should be listening to ours first, and yes they are talking to him. The head commissioner bloke has said to him already, if he cuts, they will lose police on the ground, and because they are already taking measures to tighten up their own spending he is also NOT asking the government to throw more money at them. Year 1,2 and 3 they will be able to cope, year 4 is going to be very different.

I know cuts have to be made, but this week has illustrated that, although no extra spending is needed, let the police make their own cuts, as they are, and not be strangled by government.

Isn't it also a form of cut by not increasing spending in necessary areas? This is our security, and we can all see where this will end up if the police do not have the proper support and resources to do their jobs.

It is also going to cost to put some of the practises in place as were in NYC, how is that to be funded from a cut budget?

Is there anything stopping the police commissioners from actually talking to anyone else themselves? Or is it really an either/or situation. A fresh pair of eyes and a different perspective is surely better than the impasse we seem to be in at the moment. This guy has experience....let's learn from it rather than ignore it !!!

I honestly don't see it as a problem..if he did nothing and spoke to no one he'd get a kicking for doing nothing lol.
x

You wouldn't you Tory you! lol..

The point is, its up to the POLICE to seek information elsewhere, they are supposed to have operational independence, that is to say, away from Governments telling them how to act, what to do, how to tackle crime. It is NOT up to DC to speak to foreign police, he should be speaking and listening to ours....and he isn't! Why not? Why won't he consult our police?

DC is always spouting about how police have operational independence, yet he seems unwilling to let them have it, or give them credit when they do act. ie, taking credit for placing 16000 extra police in London, giving them authorisation to use baton round. That was already in place, before he got back to England.

I don't have a problem with it.

He can speak to the devil himself as far as I'm concerned.. if it made a start on reducing gun crime and making the streets safer !

No it won't help directly Rose,but let's not forget that in the main, these riots took place in areas where there are heavy Gang-related crime statistics. That's no coincidence. The gang and drug culture has a lot to answer for from a community point of view.

Let's not also forget that the majority of the people actually involved in the looting were doing it because everyone else was doing it. They would not have even considered it on their own. People were following like sheep a small minority.

Also, and I've said all along, not only was it pure criminality, but also the fashionable 'let's fight the police' trend among youngsters and certain factions of society. They don't view police as 'law enforcement officers there to protect society', but have a misguided view that they are there to control society as a police state. (they should try living in a real police state, but thats a different debate) Our police, no matter what they do, have no respect. It was realised decades ago that there should be more policing of communities using police of the same ethnic origin as those within the communities. That didn't work, they were stoned and targetted as 'the enemy' more so that white british officers were.