General Chat

I hope the royals and all them that sit on fat gov handout wallets saw it aswell.........



Sam is a very intelligent boy,,,,,,he should go far.and how switched on were those children,,,,,,

Of course the BBC found the worse case to highlight this problem and with any luck it *may*shame departments to get something done for the kids who will be the future of this country....

sleep well Rita :-)

Rita, i probably would have burnt them if I had put the hob on the right setting lol, as it was they were just sitting there in tepid water ! However they have now been cooked and eaten.

"The bit about them having large families and out Grand ancestors having large families there is a difference our Grand ancestors didnt get any help .it was the work house for them if they could not manage and times were different then no prevention against having babies , that is not the case now."

Not in this country it isn't the case, but it still is in so many other countries.

There is obviously a huge failure in getting the money to the right people, but should that mean we no longer try? Yes money has gone into the pockets of corrupt governments, but it always will, and there will, even in countries where this is not the case, be natural disasters on a scale we just do not get in this country and which those countries cannot cope with.

We live in a country where if a crop fails due to drought, no one starves. We are not war torn and pushed from our homes at gun point.

It is a circular argument that we could have forever lol,

But to get back to the initial post, there is no excuse , not recession , nor immigration, nor overseas aid, nor fighting wars, for the existence of slums in THIS country. No excuse, while ANY politician sits comfortably in no 10 with his kids warm and safe , for the children in that programme to lie in damp rooms, with their lungs subjected to mould spores.

It makes me really angry that we are sending all that aid to India when they have more millionaires then we have and they are a rich country.

back...

It's such a huge question Rita , and I am not equipped to give you an answer, I'm not an economist or a politician. My stance is purely personal, based on many things, from personal experience of ( relative) poverty, even just the way I was brought up, not especially in a religious home but seeing someone in need as deserving of help if it could possibly be given...whether that was a neighbour next door , a stranger or someone a 1000 miles away. Why should 'we' help other countries? or more pertinently try and help poor people in those countries? Because in relative terms 'we' are better off and they need the help.

I can only give you my own very 'woolly' answer, and that is because I honestly believe trying to bring other countries ( and ours at the same time) up to a basic standard of living, of democracy, of peace, and of caring for others where ever they may live, is essential to the future...see I told you it was woolly lol.

Can I just reply to one point you make? "The people out there keep giving birth they all seem to have large families you would think they would realise that when they have a child it costs more money.to feed and cloth.not our responsiblity "

My gt grandfather had 8 children, could he afford them? no, I think that could probably apply to most of us on here, that at some point we had ancestors who lived in poverty but still kept having children? part of that might be religious observance
( Catholic) part might be having more children because of the high mortality rate. In some countries people have more children because it is the only way there is a chance of being supported in their old age ( no welfare state) .

On a personal level it is of course up to the individual what charity they give to, and where and how much ( or nothing ) without having to be made to feel selfish or uncomfortable either way. From point of view of govt...we are all free to vote for any party that decides against aid to other countries...or indeed to form such a party if so many people feel that it is what needs to be done...or even march on Downing St in mass protest.

I'll have to be quick Rita, because I'm in between cooking lol

Why do the North think the South are 'rich'? ( and bear in mind none of my family come from the North unless you count Cheshire lol) , most of my family also came from London in the late 19C living in very poor conditions, and continued that way well into the 20thC. I too have lived in houses with an outside toilet and no bathroom.

I suppose to be fair this idea of the wealth being in the South ,or my impression of why people may have felt it so anyway. stems from hearing about the Jarrow marches from my mum ( edited...my uncle was a special constable employed to keep things under control during the general strike ). London, was where the government was, the 'decision makers.

I think, and from people I have spoken too, that there is still, rightly or wrongly, a feeling that those in govt in London are too far away to know what life is like in the, now non-industrial, North.

In the 'south' ( draw a line across from Liverpool perhaps?), there has traditionally not been quite as much industry and so jobs whilst still scarce at various times, have not been quite so concentrated in specific industries? ( I am thinking here the yorks and Lancs mills, the ship building, steel works etc further North).

sorry got to check potatoes , back in a bit

(Edit, typing too quickly, I made a mistake re uncle, he was actually a special constable during the General strike, NOT the Jarrow march specifically.)

ah but there are legally and morally ok ways an accountant uses to save a client's money Foggy, and some which are neither ;-) I wasn't really meaning legitimate claims, I mean t the decidedly dodgy ones!

I always look, i admit, to see if the impoverished can still afford cigarettes lol, because i don't smoke and could not afford to. BUT, in the write up of the programme , the maker said he felt bad having asked why, if the single mum could barely afford food for the kids, she kept a dog? the answer was for protection after finding a stranger in the house...so the dog was not an 'un-necessary expense'. My cups of coffee are not an 'essential', but you do have to have 'something' to get you through the days...for some people I have to accept this will be cigarettes?


With TVs, games consoles, there is a point at which the entertainment provided by the tv, IS an essential in some ways...it keeps the kids off dangerous streets for one thing, if there is nowhere 'safe' to play, what do you do?

I don't think you would be either clever or dishonest.
In business there are things that are tax deductible and things that are not.
When I had my business I wanted everything I could claim for, the accountant works to the revenue guide lines, but should make sure that his client gains as much as possible, that is how it works.

Regarding any moral issues with it, I personally don't think morals come into it.
Is it morally right that children are brought up in a family where the parents are either drunkards or drug addicts, thereby subjecting their children to a life of poverty so that they can get their fix.?
Is it morally right for children to be raised in a family where the parents WONT work to support them,?
You often see that in the homes of these deprived children, not all of them I must add, there is always large flat screen TV, electronic game consuls etc..
Where are the priorities there.

Of course we would all wish that money given either through the govt or individual donations should go where it's meant to and the govt and charities have a responsibilty to ensure that, as far as they are able, that's a seperate issue though Foggy, and I really wanted to stick with the main one here.

Talking to Dan last night we hit the 'moral dilemma', where does 'looking after number one" end and 'moral responsibility' begin? as an example, if I have money and I employ a clever accountant who cuts my accurate tax bill using 'loopholes', am I 'clever' or 'dishonest'? lol.

Why should any of us care if it doesn't affect us personally? because we do and it does! If not in our own back yard, because it is the country's ( any country) future, these children who know nothing but struggle and poverty, and have lost 'hope' almost before they know the meaning of the word.

That may be Rose, that is if the money given to these countries gets to where it is meant to go.
Huge amounts of it is syphoned of by the governments of those countries, the same as the money that is donated to charity's.
To many people dipping their hands in the till. same as our politicians.

I personally don't see any difference between the south and the north, I think its all down to the way we live and our values.

and I would say, that though this poverty in our country is appalling, it still is not to be compared with a child dying before it is a year old from hunger or disease that can be prevented with just clean water, which even the poorest here DOES have.

A school in Kenya ( according to the girl who is giving half her win on Deal or no Deal to building them ) can be established for 6k , if money goes there to educate, then that country or any other will cease to need money in the future...money given is securing the future not just for the people of whichever country, but also our own...we cannot live in isolation...that is what the 'rich South' of the UK has thought of the 'poor North' for generations..."Nothing to do with US here,, different people there, all flat caps and funny accents!"

For anyone interested 2 books for you:

The Real Gorbals Story by Colin MacFarlane
Gorbals Diehards by same author.

OH says he couldn't put these books down, says they
should be read in sequel, thinks Diehards is first.

Emmax

It makes ME angry Rita, that money is spent on huge bonuses to bankers that have run the country into the ground, it makes me angry that we are renewing Trident when it is totally redundant, it make me angry that people think it has to be 'either/or' charity at home or overseas...

AS I said in my previous post, this is nothing new...the people below the poverty line in this country haven't suddenly appeared in these awful conditions ( though they are increasing) they have been there through successive governments and at periods when the Govt of the day was not giving so much 'away' to other countries, when we weren't in recession, when 'times were good' and there were enough jobs ( at least south of the line) ).

When the Clyde ship yards and other industries closed leaving no jobs, where was the investment into that area from Govt, where has it been since then? before our 'immigration problem', and international recession became the issues of the day.

it is not lack of money that has kept these areas so poor, it is lack of will and caring, for decades past.

Chris, "so-called asylum seekers" ARE asylum seekers and do not get benefits until their case is proven, that's a different concern.

Make no mistake there has been enough money in this country to have changed those slums, in the decades when this country was doing well and not in recession, it has gone to fat cats who haven't a clue how living in those circumstance is NOT just a case of being idle or failing to "get on your bike" to get work.

I am blaming ALL political parties, but as in my op, what to do about it now is down to DC, if we are in the worst 5 (was it?) for child poverty in Europe then he must know that taking money from people, both in benefits, money for services, and in failure to make a stable economy with industry and jobs ( and those all at one sweep in effect ) he will tip even more parents and children into those circumstances...witness the imminent 19% rise in electricity prices!

People who are just 'scraping by' at the moment will fall further down the poverty ladder, people losing jobs will lose their homes ( house re-possessions "repossessions will probably rise from 40,000 this year to 45,000 in 2012.").

I was talking to Dan after the programme last night, he'd watched it too and I was telling him that Gorbals had always been a poverty ridden area, I can remember when I was a child my mum mentioning the Gorbals, in relation probably to the depression and the national strike when SHE was a child. And now I am talking about the same thing to Dan and it seems too little has changed.

Decent housing has to be the basic requirement, because without that you are trapped in a cycle of need...you have no where to dry clothes so you dry them on the heaters, that makes the place even damper than it was, the electric or gas bills go up so you go without other things to pay them, or get into debt where you are forever paying off just the interest.

Your house is damp and mouldy, so your belongings are the same, your health is affected so the health service costs for area go up..less money into other services. You are poor and in an area of poverty the 'means of escape' too often lies in a bottle or a syringe, and even when it doesn't your circumstances erode any hope you have of something better.

I don't know what the answer is economically, but I know there HAS to be one.

Perhaps we would have more money to go in the right directions if we stopped paying huge benefits to so-called asylum seekers etc., caught benefit cheats (although they do appear to be catching more of them) and stopped paying disability benefit to drug addicts whilst genuine claims are turned down.

I object to paying millions to both Pakistan and India. They may have needed it in the past but not now.

Hi Rose,
Not offending at all, I think it is a total disgrace that anyone should have to live like that now days, shame on the government of Scotland.
If the Scottish government have not done anything to correct all the disgusting housing, can you imagine what it will be like if and when they are self governing.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Glasgow awarded the European city of culture in 1990.?
Whatever organisation that awarded that looked at Glasgow with their eyes shut.
Glasgow is very much like Chicago, there are nice parts, but go just outside where all the money is spent on making the city look nice and you enter areas of object poverty and ghettos.

I believe Glasgow also has above the national average of people with drink problems, that doesn't help.

Foggy

In a society where we are virtually controlled by advertizers we have very little help or education in controlling money.Nobody could read until they were taught so why would mamaging money be any different.

Supermarkets are not above exploiting the poor.BOGOF on bumper bags of crisps is not a bargain,it is a very expensive way to buy spuds.Probably,had the poor boy's mother been taught how to manage her finances more efficiently,he would not have had to wear his sister's old shirt.

I watched the programme and Rose, you described those children so well. I was impressed by the way they articulated their lives and the mature way they faced things.

Throughout the world there are slums, we have seen the way people live in Mumbai and Nigeria, ekeing a living from rubbish dumps and such but for a supposedly civilised country like Britain which constantly gives millions to these afore mentioned countries, we shouldn't then have children and families living in such dire housing conditions and playing in empty dangerous houses etc

I felt especially sorry for the lad Sam who had to wear his sister's blouse and trousers that were far too small for him. How smart he looked after his first haircut, paid for as his birthday gift from his aunt. That family were struggling partly because the teenage girl's Child Benefit had been stopped even tho she was still in full time education and only 16. How long winded Social Security was being in reinstating the payment and sending the amount owed them in arrears.

I loved the way the young girl was so happy with the new house they moved to, and hope they will go from strength to strength now they have a better home environment.

Lizx

Susan thanks for the info about the book. Like many others I also had people who lived there, but I had been led to believe that the slum or poorer areas had been cleared away and better things put in for the community.

No first world country should have slums, it's a sad indictment on any country that enables this to happen, and no doubt happens in many countries. Not being biased as my own country also has the same areas and potentially worse...