General Chat

sylvia ....rapists muggers paedos ....all cool by me .
also as YOU dont know me ,what right do you have to assume i havent thought this through.ive stated this point on many occasions.if you dont agree you only have to say,without making your usual obnoctious belittling comments .
the only drivel i see at the moment is what comes from your mouth.

which thread????????????
no i dont like the way you speak down to people .but when you do it to me .you get it back.and yes i can see through you too.we all dont think the same ,thats life .you could have said you did,nt agree without trying to belittle.next time you feel the need .go munch on someone elses a--.ok

no and neither are you.[happy hunting lol]

It is a huge dilemma, isn't it? One area where I admit to being somewhat hypocritical.... I only wear cosmetics not tested on animals, but acknowledge that initially... years ago... the original ingredients would have been tested on animals anyway.

I probably use a shower gel that has been tested at some time... but it is just about the only one I am able to use without coming out in a horrendous rash.

And my life has just been saved... I would have been dead by last Christmas.... by drugs and research which have almost certainly been conducted on animals... but even 10 years ago, my cancer was an automatic death sentence, the type of leukemia I had was particularly aggressive... and new stuff is coming out all the time.... most of it will have been tested on animals.

If I relapse, and as I can no longer have the powerful chemo drugs, and I was offered hope via being a guinea pig myself, I'd jump at the chance... but I have already gone into remission as a result of being a guinea pig on clinical trials... and the drugs I have been on have been real kill or cure stuff, lol.

So... I do not have the luxury of the moral stance...

I do not agree with prisoners being forced to become guinea pigs, though... anyone who does so, must do so freely and without coercion, otherwise I would feel as base and as foul as some of those criminals.

Love

Daff xxxx

I agree experiments on animals for cosmetic reasons ie lipstick,makeup etc. Is abhorrent and I think unneccessary!!...........but did anyone see tv programme last night about 'neccessary cosmetic surgery'?

Victims of serious facial and body injuries ,due to war or accidents, regaining their faces/lives again!

It was a very interesting documentary, and looked back hundreds of years to when surgical experiments were first carried out on humans (and without any anaesthetic)!! we have them to be thankful for,to how surgery is performed today.
Since that time surgeons have learnt, through experimenting on animals, that tissue/muscle can be grown from vital organs and in my opinion that is an important reason for involving animals.

If any of my family had to have reconstructive surgery, I'm sorry, but they would always come first.

I was hoping that this thread would be about serious debate, not insinuations and name-calling. I am perfectly willing to listen to the other side of an argument, as long as it is debated in a civilised manner.

Seeing that it has now descended to the level of the gutter press I am removing the thread from my bookmarks. Good luck to the serious correspondents - my pity to those of you who have spoilt a good link.

"The Guinea Pig Club -

The Guinea Pig Club is the name given to the pilots injured in the Battle of Britain who were treated by Sir Archibald McIndoe at the burns unit of Queen Victoria's Hospital in East Grinstead, West Sussex. The Guinea Pigs were give this name simply because McIndoe had no choice but to try out his ideas on the men as he had no book to refer to or guide him.

The original intake of recovering pilots decided to set up a club and only men who had been patients at the burns unit could join. This decision was taken in July 1941. They chose the title of the club - a sign of the humour the men had as they knew full-well that reconstructive plastic surgery was in its infancy and that they were quite literally guinea pigs for the burns unit. "

Bernie... this is still an excellent debate about a very serious and emotive issue, I think, anyway.

Love

Daff xxxx

I quite agree Bernie

Rose did you watch the programe? here's the anthem the brave club members sing at their meetings:

We are McIndoe’s army, We are his Guinea Pigs.
With dermatomes and pedicles, Glass eyes, false teeth and wigs.
And when we get our discharge We’ll shout with all our might: “Per ardua ad astra” We’d rather drink than fight

John Hunter runs the gas works, Ross Tilley wields the knife. And if they are not careful They’ll have your flaming life.
So, Guinea Pigs, stand ready For all your surgeon’s calls: And if their hands aren't steady.......... :!!

I haven't read the posts here as I always get upset when it comes to experiments on animals,even though I do believe it is neccessary to help in finding the cures to some terrible illnesses .

No Mau, didn't see the programme , though have seen others in the past on the subject .

I do find this a difficult topic , being aware that , unlike Daff who as she very eloquently puts it does "not have the luxury of the moral stance..." I do have that luxury...

xx

Having read this I find it a very interesting Thread,Apart from the couple who threw a couple of Wobblers,Any way re the continuious testing for the same drug,If you read on the labels that come with these drugs,there are sometimes very serious "Side Effects" that go with them,So possibly ( not Certain )they could be retesting to eliminate these.Just a Thought, as for testing for Cosmetics.A definate No No as far As I,m Concerned.**M**.

It is a difficult subject Rose ,but when they focussed on the surgeries given to the French woman, who had her face literally taken off by a dog,and another girl who was in such a mess from being injured in an accident involving a drunken driver,... I think then that 'the end justifies the means' in my book.
xx

I hate that phrase Mau lol,

I don't actually think ( for me ) there is a situation where the pain and suffering of one sentient being alleviated by causing pain and suffering to another sentient being is justified... and that is the key I think, in those words 'pain and suffering', if tests did not include the aspect of suffering then my view would be different perhaps but many of them do, of necessity to guage their 'success'.

there I didn't know I was going to say that, till I said it lol

sorry if that upsets anyone, between a rock and a hard place for most on this subject I know.

I agree with your sentiments and of course hope the experiments can be done with as little suffering as possible, but and it's a big but, should we go back to having human guinea pigs?

Mau, that is a risky question to ask on here lol I think there might be a few nominees ;)

xx

hi mau.my point is i appreciate that testing has to be done.and when it helps save peoples lives obviously thats good.cosmetics is a no no for me .but when i see paedos and serial killers [who i believe have lost there right to live in a civilised society]why not test on them .why should the animal have to suffer all the time .thats my belief ,i dont expect others to agree its just how i feel.xx

Hi again, just had dinner.

Now now Rose ;O)...that would be a whole different thread!!

Joy, I sympathise with you about these 'so called human beings' and mere words can't express how I feel about them,but it would be much too complicated, re: their families etc. ...would that it was that easy and civilised folk could be free of the lot of them...could always get lowlife to volunteer I suppose ...now that would be a better idea!
xx

hi mau .yep you got a good point...like your idea better lol.xxx

Granted many people get upset about animal testing and would go to any lengths to save them.
Recent drownings of several dog owners trying to save their pets bears this out, but would you go that far?

At least unlike people, we allow our sickly pets to be put down, however painful it is for us.
My father-in-law died of bowel cancer.
Treatment..............open him up, sew him up and give him morphine!
He lasted two months and it was not pleasant.
I would have given the OK to any animal experiment which would have decreased the pain suffered by all the family.

Recently I cut through my carpal tunnel (hand) and was quite happy that surgeons were able to reconnect the blood supply, nerves and tendons allowing my hand to work pefectly.
I would hate to be told that a required surgery had not been tested at all but they just wanted to try it out on me, and not to worry as if it failed, they could always try again on the next patient.
Did anyone watch the Royal London Hospital drama set in 1907 on BBC..........ouch!

The older I get the more precious my life becomes.

I do not agree with cosmetic testing even though years ago I had a shampoo (V#####) which actually burned my scalp.
At least all I had to do was rinse it out well.

By the way what about that mouse with an ear gowing on it's back!!!!!!
Just think if you lost your ear, nose, lip etc. the possibilities are endless and of course that counts as an experiment as well.
Not all experiments are " vivisection " although it would be nice if it was not required at all.

In the end it will be down to work on the Genetic Code thereby discovering how to stop disease and "repair" people.
Then of course we will all live forever and run out of things to argue about................or will we ?