General Chat

Anybody can 'belong' to a church without having to physically go along every week to clock- in /show your face etc, therefore incurring a fee..One sahould feel free to donate to those who they feel are in need and not to ensure a place in 'heaven'..

Surely it's a tradition that, if you 'belong' to a religion you pay a tithe?

What do you class as belonging?

Someone who attends or someone who was baptised there/in that faith?


I'd love to see the look on an atheist's face if s/he was told they were required to pay a tithe because their parents had chosen to have them christened there.

The fact that one has chosen to support a religion( ie support the faith) should be enough! money shouldn't come into it! if one is fortunate enough to be in a position to to give cash donations to a Church then that should be seen as a bonus.... afterall, I'm sure that many wouldn't willingingly want to be part of a cult/group who only welcome cash donaters into their faith/group! defeating the object of it isn't it?

Dear All

I was a bit afraid of posting this one on the board.

I did not expect to receive a lot of responses.

Thank you all for taking time to reply.

All the views and opinions have been interesting and thoughtful.


I will offer this:

"Occasionally, in life there are those moments of un-utterable fulfillment which cannot be completely explained by those symbols called words.

Their meanings can only be articulated by the in-audible language of the heart".

SAID BY MARTHI LUTHER KING Jnr

At the Nobel Lecture
11 December 1964

That is how I feel.

Whatever your views or faith, take care and have peace in your lives.

Best wishes
x

If I go to a club of any sort , be it in a room, a hall or anywhere, I am usually expected to pay a sub, to cover costs.

So Yes dont see why a church should be any different. Costs should be met by the attendee.

Thanks Elizabeth, it is good to get people's thoughts on various themes and to be able to discuss things in a sensible way. Discussions such as this help us to see each other's differing points of view without any offence being caused.

Some valid and interesting points have been raised overnight.


Ah well, another new day and I'm off to a funeral.......in church!

Why not ask MPs to pay every time they enter The House of Commons.

Oops! I've got that the wrong way round!!

I remember when I was 12 that the vicar at my church came round with envelopes and said that the church wanted each family to pay a stipend of 10% of their earnings to the church..........I can't remember if my parents paid or not........I can't remember handing over any envelopes though.....

.......what do I think about it........ not sure really, I think people should be paid an actual wage and not have to rely on tips and 'expenses' to bolster their incomes........also that the churches are quite rich in their properties and lands........but I am open to other peoples views, as I am not too sure of my own opinions.....

sally

Well, there was a collection plate out at the funeral and I did put something on it. I know where the money goes and......Rita, remember the parable of the Widow's mite? Every little helps.





Moonchild, the clergy in the Church of England are paid from a central source (Church Commissioners), not from their local church. The stipend is just over £17,000 a year at the moment I think.



Many people have to manage on a lot less than that, but clergy have to study and pass exams etc. and are regarded as 'professionals' They are treated as equals with doctors and solictors etc. so when you equate their pay with the incomes of said doctors and lawyers etc. there really isn't a comparison.



The house goes with the job but, if the wife doesn't work, then they are faced with a bleak outlook come retirement. (Unless they inherit money of course).


Dermot, as for the MPs.....now that's another story altogether!!

Many church buildings need financial support for their upkeep.

A comment about clergy - many nowadays are non-stipendiary, not solely in C of E but also Methodist, URC etc.

It's true about the non-stipendiary clergy - they are the folk who very often have a job but who feel the call to be ordained. They help out in many parishes but don't carry the responsiblities of the paid clergy.

Also, retired clergy are invaluable to help fill in when the vicar is on holiday, off sick, or stretched beyond his limits. They get expenses which can help to boost their pension a little.

An addition re NSM clergy (non-stipendiary) - I know some that are currently in charge of a church.

i was always of the understanding that the council were resposible for the upkeep of the coe church and that it was the catholic church that had to find the money for thier upkeep?

Also it must be remembered that a Vicar/Minister/Pastor/Priest whatever the branch of the Christian Church, is expected to be available 24 hours a day, and seven days a week, to help and comfort those in distress.............even Doctors don't have to do that these days. Many people who don't go to church, or even believe at all, will turn to the Church at a time of trouble ...........it is almost an instinct.

Our lovely past retirement age Minister in a Church of Scotland Church that was - along with the Catholic Church - at the heart of the little village - was always available, as was the Catholic Priest, they were both true comforters of the sad and bereaved. They spent many hours visiting every week. The housebound always got a visit and the sacrement taken to them if they wished. Even those who had not been in Church for years would be cared for.

At a time of great sadness in the village when a local fishing boat was lost with all hands, the waiting for news, the waiting for bodies to be found, the funerals and memorial services, took a huge toll on the two men of God, but they never faltered, despite one being well over retirement age, and the other not a young man.

Incidentally the lady Dr. who was there at the time - now since retired - refused to sign up to the Health 24 thingy and declared her intention to be available herself on call out, because we were quite remote and another Dr. might have to come from half way across Scotland, and people could suffer and be endangered by having to wait that long................Herself, and the two Churchmen really were the old fashioned understanding of Service to their Parishioners and Patients. You just don't get that in many places nowadays.

So shake the moths out of the purse, you might need comfort one day.............

Eileen
birth name

The Protestant and Catholic churches in Germany are largely financed through church tax ("Kirchensteuer") that is collected by the state from all registered members of these denominations. If you don't want to pay, you have to formally leave the church and are then no longer entitled to use any of the churches services ie., baptism, marriage, burial. I believe some other countries also have this system.

Patricia, sadly that just isn't the case. Many people think that the Church of England is financed by the state but it isn't. It's down to us.


Eileen, what an inspiring and moving story - people with true vocations. You were truly blessed as a community weren't you?



Julia, that's so interesting, never heard of that system - mind you, one lives and learns. What are the people thoughts on this or are they just used to it and accept it? What sort of effect does it have on church life etc?

There's no such thing as a poor vicar.

Cynthia - The Germans are used to this system and as the church tax is simply taken directly out of their wages, I suppose they don't really notice.

It certainly means the Church in Germany is financially, pretty stable.

I just looked up which other countries employ the same system - Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Finland, Iceland and some parts of Switzerland.

Berona, I know what you mean. Some churches are friendly and lively whilst others can be quite deadly dull at times. It isn't always the vicar's fault - it depends what/who he has to work with - but an inspiring leader at the helm works wonders.



Claire, what makes you think that? There are some clergy on income support and I know of one who is retiring this year who, because his wife didn't go out to work but supported him in the parish over the years, has no savings and is having to rent a retirement home from the Church authorities. They had no other income during his working life and large vicarages to heat etc.


Others have to take on a mortgage when they retire - which can be between 65-70 years of age. Not an ideal situation.




However, most clergy wives work these days and that brings in extra income which is why many of them can afford to start buying their retirement home earlier.



Julia, OH said he thought that system had been around a long time! What sort/size of congregations do the churches get? Mind you, the C of E. is a bit stuck because it's the state church and there are all sorts of legal things like disestablishment to consider. I'm still interested in your system though.

Hi Cynthia,

Your OH is correct, this system has been around a long time -

The church tax is historically rooted in the pre-Christian Germanic custom where the chief of the tribe was directly responsible for the maintenance of priests and religious cults. During the Christianization of Western Europe, this custom was adopted by the Christian churches (Arian and Catholic) in the concept of "Eigenkirchen" (churches owned by the landlord) which stood in strong contrast to the central church organization of the Roman Catholic church. Despite the resulting medieval conflict between emperor and pope, the concept of church maintenance by the ruler remained the accepted custom in most Western European countries. In Reformation times, the local princes in Germany became officially heads of the church in Protestant areas and were legally responsible for the maintenance of churches. Not until the 19th century were the finances of churches and state regulated to a point where the churches became financially independent. At this point the church tax was introduced to replace the state benefits the churches had obtained previously.

Taxpayers, whether Roman Catholic, Protestant or members of other tax-collecting communities, pay between 8% (in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg) and 9% (in the rest of the country) of their income tax to the church or other community to which they belong.[
(From Wikepedia.)

In my experience, the churches here have very large congregations.

Hope that answers your questions.

Julia