Genealogy Chat

I have been puzzling over the identity of my Gtx3 Grandparents. Please see below. i was quite happy until last weekend when I was given my Dad's old scrap book containing several certificates, one of which was for my Gtx2 Grandmother ann Duffin nee Webster.

Fact. William Duffin aged 27 married Ann Webster age 27 at Parish church Botley June 1857 Fathers William Duffin Butcher and William Webster Coachman Witnesses Sarah Webster and David Trodd Fact Letter in my possession from her employer to Ann Webster in 1832, the letter implies that both she and ‘Webster’ her husband are employees (servants) and remarks on ‘all her children.’ Fact in 1881 William is 84 living with his widowed daughter Mary Ann, his age tallies with 1871 and 1861. On the 1861 Williams place of birth is Canterbury and Ann’s is Warwickshire. His age 64, proprieter of houses (what’s that?) Puzzle Baptism certificate (copy in 1859) for Ann Webster born 1830, parents William and Elizabeth Webster. At Highgate Middlesex. (on 1901 Ann gives her birth place as Highgate and age as 71.) On IGI with the same batch numbers, parents William and Ann Webster 11 children including Ann shown as Ann Zillah Webster 1830. Ten of these including Ann baptised at St Stephen Coleman St, London, Their address given as 55 Coleman St, his profession given as baker. (Ann’s baptism checked for me by Lyla). Their first child is Mary Ann Elizabeth Webster born 1817 and baptised at St Luke Old St Finsbury. Dates of their children run from 1817 to 1838 Also on IGI parents William and Elizabeth have 9 children all baptised St Stephen Coleman St dates of their children run from 1847 to 1868. They do not have a daughter Ann. Fact Ann and William Duffin’s first child was called Elizabeth and her first child was called Annie Elizabeth. If you were me would you assume that the Elizabeth Webster on the copy certificate was actually Ann Webster? My reasons being the name given to Mary Ann Elizabeth, William and Ann Duffin’s child and her child. I think her name was probably Elizabeth Ann. Your opinions would be valued please. Ann Glos

I have several rellies that appear to have swapped their 1st and 2nd names. It seems to have been quite common practice to name a child, for instance, Mary Jane, then call her day-to-day Jane. It then seems to get forgotten what order the names come in, and they get entered on the census in the wrong order. Another possibility is twins. I have 2 aunts, Kathleen Mary and Mary Kathleen, which has lead to all manner of confusion. I am currently researching my 3xG-grandfather who has either changed his names around, or was one of twins, but i can't find a complete set of records for either set of names. Hope this helps

Ann I have a great-great aunt called Annie consistently until she got married. Then she decided to be Elizabeth Annie just for the marriage cert and reverted back to Annie again ever after! nell

I suppose we could be Ann from glos 1 and Ann from Glos 2 or i could be ann K from Glos. i didn't realise that you were suffering an identity problem!! Where in Glos 'Barbara'. Ann glos

I wonder if i will ever know. I think i am pretty safe assuming though. i know the answer would be their marriage and her birth cert. Incidentally I had a Sarah i was looking for her marriage for ages on 1837 online, came up with one i thought was the one but on the cert she was Elizabeth so they wouldn't send it. When i asked them to look again, they sent the cert with an apology and a note. "please note, name is Elizabeth but she has signed Sarah"!!!!! Ann Glos

Just to create an extra red herring: Why was that baptism certificate needed? Was she getting money from someone's will, or demonstrating that she was of age? Most people don't bother to of obtaining copies after the event. If you can get a look up of the actual baptism, that will give father's occupation, which ought to help. B

Hi Ann I've been having a hard time trying to get my head round your puzzle too! I can't see that Ann Zillah is yours. The names of the mothers don't match, the father's occupation is wrong (baker, not coachman), and the name "Zillah" doesn't appear on the baptismal certificate you have. (Or does it?) In the circumstances, I think you can safely say that Ann Webster's mother was called Elizabeth. This also means that you should disregard the Census entries for the William Webster, retired baker. Although he is probably AZW's father, he is highly unlikely to be Ann's. I can't imagine a baker (in 1830) becoming a coachman (in 1857) and then calling himself a retired biscuit maker (in 1871). Lyla is quite right about the Highgate baptism - it needs further investigation. Does the certificate provide any more information than you have mentioned so far? Also, don't forget that Sarah Webster (marriage witness) was probably one of Ann's sisters. With any luck, she will have been born after 1837! Hope this helps. Dave

I had to get a copy of my baptismal certificate when marrying in a Catholic church in a different parish (to prove I was a baptised catholic), I would imagine it would have been the same then.

Sorry I had lost this thread. will try and answer all questions. Brenda I can't think why she would have wanted the certificate as she was 27 when she married in 1857, her first child (Elizabeth) was born in September 1859. The certificate is dated 2 February 1859 William and Elizabeth Webster, occupation servant. Highgate Chapel in the parish of Hornsey. (Highgate being 3.5. miles away as far as I can estimate from St Stephens Coleman street. I accept that her Mother had the name Elizabeth but I am convinced that she was known as Ann for the reason that I have in my possession, passed down from Ann Duffin nee Webster via her daughter to my Grandmother to my Father to me, a letter from Mrs Elizabeth Langford to Mrs Webster at Mrs Langfords Highgate and the letter starts 'Ann' she is obviously their employer expressing concern to Ann about her husband. Mrs Langford is writing from Brighton to Highgate, Ann is obviously at Highgate and William in Brighton and ill. Mrs Langford says that if possible ann should leave her children with someone and come to him. I am as certain as I can be that the date is 1832. Yes, i had thought about Sarah Webster being probably a sister but she could also be a sister in law. (Or even a cousin) so i didn't want to get hung up on that. On the marriage certificate her Father is a coachman. Is cripplegate anywhere near Highgate? Can't remember any more questions so will go back and look, may be another posting later. Thanks all Ann Glos

Just to cause more confusion. The William Webster in the above censuses and with his wife Ann and daughter Eleanor (The one who in all probability is not mine) who was first a baker, then a retired biscuit maker in 1871. In 1861 this same William is 64 and a proprieter of houses!!!! Then in 1881 he is 84 and a retired tradesman - still living at 22 Highbury Place islington. So he did switch occupations. ann Glos

As I messaged you Lyla, sorry if I have confused you. william was living at 22 Highbury Place Islington in the censuses. The letter addressed to my ann's Mother, who her employer addressed as Ann, was to Mrs Langfords at Highgate. So I am afraid it is not the same address. I really could do with placing 11 year old Ann with her parents in the 1841/and 21 year old in the 1851 census. (I have put out a request). My head hurts!!!! I do appreciate your help all who have posted on here, especially Lyla who has been to the Guildhall for me as well. ann Glos

Yes, or a William and Elizabeth (known as Ann) from Highgate or somewhere. I don't think it can be Ann Zillah and she was given the wrong baptismal certificate do you? She will have asked for one from Highgate. Ann Glos

actually found a mention on the web of Highgate chapel Hornsey in 1830, so it did exist and therefore must have a register somwhere. Ann glos

If I can throw in my halfpenny worth (and thats probably ALL its worth) Often employers had 'set' names for their servants e.g. the parlourmaid was always called Rose, the kitchen maid always called Violet etc. - this was to save the poor employers from the strain of having to remember names, poor things! Wonder if her employer called her Ann because there was already an Elizabeth in her employ? As I said, just a halfpennys worth! Marjorie

Marjorie that is of course a thought to bear in mind. Thank you. Ann Glos