Genealogy Chat

As this board seems fairly quiet at the moment, anybody got time to spare to help me break down a brick wall regarding my great-great-grandmother? See below when I've typed it...

My great-great-grandparents, Walter Horner BROWN and Jane LAURENCE, got married on the 26th Feb 1876 at St. Stephen's Church, Hampstead (London). Jane gave her age as 'full', condition as 'spinster' and residence as 'Hampstead'. No father's details. Very helpful, huh? Witnesses were James Nacogne and Raynham A. Stewart. I have spent many happy hours looking them up and I am pretty sure they were not related to Jane or Walter but were friends of Walter's. On their daughter Alice's birth certificate, Jane's name is 'Jane Brown (formerly Laurence)'. On the 1881 census the Browns were living at 13 Eton Villas, Hampstead. Walter H. Brown Head M 44 Merchant Mile End, Middlesex Jane Brown Wife M 33 Newington Butts, Surrey Lydia J. Brown daur 5 Hampstead Alice Q. Brown daur 3 Hampstead and some servants. On the 1891 they were living at 88 Adelaide Road, Hampstead: Walter H. Brown Head M 54 Coal Merchant Middlesex Stepney Jane Brown Wife M 42 Hants Basingstoke Lydia Brown daughter 15 Middlesex St. Pancras Alice Q. Brown daughter 13 Middlesex Hampstead and some servants. Jane died in the September quarter of 1893 at Hampstead (vol 1a p451), age given as 45. As far as I can tell, both census Janes are the same person as I can find no matching Jane Brown death between 1881 and 1891, nor any other marriage for Walter. The different birthplaces are mystifying, though. Jane left no will. I have even searched through the National Probate Calendar for any Lawrences or Laurences who could be her parents, but had no luck. I ordered one possible birth certificate: Jane Laurence born 13 Oct 1848 in Newington, but she had a father (Thomas Laurence) and the address was 2 York Street, Locksfields, not Newington Butts. Father's occupation on that cert was cabman and he made his mark, mother Hannah Wigmore. In Walter's will he mentions their marriage settlement, giving Jane's maiden name as 'her then name of Jane Lawrence'. He even lists the 'parties of the third part' but again they seem to have been related to Walter or friends of his (Charles James Macintosh and Thomas Brown). In 1871, Walter and his mother, another Jane, were living at 4 Stock Orchard Crescent, Lower Holloway, Islington, with a servant Emma Laurence age 21 birthplace Islington. Could she be connected? I seem to have reached a dead end here, and would appreciate any suggestions anybody has for anything I may have overlooked or anything else I could try. Kate.

I haven't got any answers for you, but don't like to see a question with no replies!! (It's because you wrote your brickwall details so well that no one has any need to ask you anything lol) I did all the boring things like look to see all the names of people called Laurence/Lawrence etc either living in or born in Newington (Butts) or Basingstoke on the 1861 and 1871 census to see if anything looked like Jane, to no avail. Very strange about the Laurence servant. I would have thought there might well have been a connection. The Basingstoke ref doesn't make any sense, does it? I have a census page where the enumerator has obviously filled out the page in columns rather than rows. It took me ages to realise he had missed out someones place of birth at the top and so all the places of birth were one line up from where they should have been, with the bottom person with no place of birth. So my own rellies Head of house place f birth which was somewhere unusual had been written against the youngest child of the person in the previous household!! Goodness knows how the enumerator managed this when he was copying from the household record sheets, but he did!! I'm not suggesting this has happened in this case, but you never know!! I'll stop rambling now. Good Luck Sarah

It's always possible that Jane is Emma Jane or something similar. Frustrating she hasn't put her father on the marriage cert! :) I'll see if I can see anything promising. Don't hold your breath though :)

I assume you have searched Ancestry for Jane Laurence, born 1848, in the 1861 census? *UPDATE* LDS also list a Jane Laurence, born 1848 in Trinity, Jersey Isle.

Cha-Cha-Cha: I have looked but couldn't find anybody that was definitely her, also looked on the 1871 ages ago and could only find a Jane who was living away from home so if it was her, it wasn't much help. I think basically if the birthplace isn't given as 'Newington Butts' or 'Basingstoke' I won't know whether I have the right Jane, will I? Kate.

Maybe when Ancestry get the 1851 census online all will be revealed! Sarah

Sarah - I very much hope so, because I am stuck for any other ideas. I have Walter's mother's will (she died after Walter and Jane married), and I was hoping for some mention of Emma and / or Jane in it, but no such luck. Cha-Cha-Cha: just saw your addition to your message, but surely if she was born in Jersey she would have said so on the census?? Anyway, that is a 'record submitted by a member of the LDS church'. Kate.

Kate: I'm just suggesting possibilities :) Something else that caught my eye at LDS: EMMA JANE LAWRANCE Female Event(s): Birth: Christening: 30 JUL 1849 Kingswinford And St. Marys Chapelry, Stafford, England Death: 30 JAN 1853 Parents: Father: JOHN LAWRANCE Family Mother: ANN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ But this date of death doesn't match up, does it. Did you find the birth ref you have at 1837? I'll be happy to look further for any Laurence/Lawrence Emma or Jane born around 1848 at 1837 if that would help at all?

Nice of you to offer, but I've been through the GRO indexes a few times myself... Kate.

Wondered about this one (a little early) Name: Lawrence, Jane Maria Record Type: Births Quarter: December Year: 1846 District: Basingstoke County: Berkshire Hampshire Volume: 7 Page: 61 Sarah

Thanks Sarah, I'll look into that one, later. The kids need the computer to do their homework now. I would have thought if she had a middle name though it would be on the certificates etc. It seems unlikely to me that Walter would bother to give the full name of the 'party of the third part' of his marriage settlement in his will, and not give his wife's full name. Anyway, thanks for all your help everybody. Kate.

I agree with what you say about the 'Maria'. Though my great-gran dropped her first forename when she married and no one after that knew anything about it! Took me about 4 years to track her down because of this lol Do you think it even slightly possible that Basingstoke could have been the enumerators translation of Bermondsey (reading the householders writing) ? I know it sounds impossible, but...... at least Bermondsey and Newington are very close together..... Hope the homework goes OK! Sarah

You said that the middle name would be unlikely, that Walter would have probably put it in if Jane had one... but I noticed that in his will (on your posting) Walter wrote Jane's maiden name as LaWrence with the 'w'... yet on the marriage cert, you list her name as LaUrence with a 'u'. Do you think that Walter's version with the W is more likely? (this may help track down Jane)... Cha

I take it that you have pursued Emma onto earlier censuses?As a servant, her age and birthplace are both a little suspect. I find it difficult to believe that there is no connection between the two women. There are lots of surname indexes for 1851 London, mainly on microfiche, and available at the FRC. Perhaps you could locate Jane and Emma using them? As regards Jane's birthplace, I suspect that Walter dashed something down, which the enumerator could not read. The earlier one is more likely to be accurate, but 1851 Hampshire is fully indexed, so perhaps someone could check that out for you.

ChaChaCha - I have always searched for both Laurence and Lawrence and other variations of the surname as I can't be certain how it would be listed in any particular case. Kate.