Genealogy Chat

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Hi - do we have any military buffs on board? I am in the process of writing a short story based on my grt grandfather's escape from Germans at the Battle of Mons. I am stuck on a few minor things and even after trawling through tons of Googled websites I'm stil unsure of the answers. My first question is regarding the weapons the infantry were using at that time. I have discovered that the guns used were mainly Lee-Enfield rifles. (My grt grandfather mentions using a rifle in his report to the local press in 1914). What I need to know is, were Bayonet's fitted to these rifles at all? Were they made for Bayonet use? (I know that some rifles had a bayonet piece that could be fitted on the end). Second question is - what do you call that back-pack thing that the soldiers used to carry around with them full of their provisions etc (not sure if there was a certain name for them). Third question (sorry!) - is anyone familiar with BRUSSELS at all? My grt grandfather was interviewed by the Surrey Comet reporter, after his escape and in it he says he ended up in a convent in Villeroi. I have searched high and low and cannot find a Villeroi in Belgium. I am wondering if this was a mispelling for a similar sounding village/town in Belgium - it would have been somewhere near to Mons. (I found a Villeroux - but according to the map it was about 40/50 miles from Mons - not sure he would have walked that far). Any help on any of these points would be greatly appreciated. I know it's a fictionalised account of what really happened that I'm writing but I do want to get my facts straight, otherwise some keen-eyed reader is bound to pick up on any mistakes. Many thanks - Leah

Just a quick reply as I'm about to be kicked off the computer by my daughter. Lee-Enfield rifles would have had a bayonet for close quarter fighting. I know in the 2rd World War they were called Big Pack and Small Pack (spike Milligams Books) or was he joking. The British Army fell back towards Paris not sure the distant but it was a fighting retreat so some achievement. Keith

Keith - thank you so much for the info. Still unsure about Villeroi - I have a feeling it's been spelt wrong by the reporter. I'm pretty certain that Farvy was still in Belgium because he became detached from the main body along with a small band from their troop and found they were unable to cross the river at Mons due to the bridges having been blown up by their own regiment on the other side to prevent the Germans proceeding after them. So they were left to fight it out with the Germans and most of them were killed or taken prisoner. Farvy managed to wrestle his rifle off of the German who had captured him and he finished him off then bolted. He hid out in a chicken coop for 4 days then was wandering lost for another day or two until finding the convent. A few days later the Belgian officials issued him with a pass and a disguise to travel through Belgiam to make his way back to the British Consul. Perhaps he did manage to cover the distance from Mons to Villeroux on foot - I suppose they were used to marching long distances. Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll leave it at that - thanks again! Leah

Also, you may find this site of help: www.1914-1918.net. Joy

Thanks for that, Joy - will take a look (I may already have been on there earlier - looked at so many WW1 sites I was dizzy! LOL) While I'm here - does anyone know if it's possible to shoot a rifle whilst it has the bayonet attached to it? Or is it only one thing or the other...you can see I really have no clue about weapons LOL Thanks, Leah

yes the rifle will still shoot with a bayonet attached However the basic .303 lee enfield weighed 8-9lbs and might have been a bit unwieldy when used in a standing position with the bayonet attached.....due to the extra weight..... thinking now.......Heres a web site to look at lee- enfields http://www.rt66.*com/~korteng/SmallArms/leenfld.htm remove the * Bob

Thanks, Bob - that's really helpful. So a 5ft 4in man might have found that a bit difficult then, I guess, unless he had a great deal of muscle strength. If only Farvy had been a bit more precise in his interview, eh? His actual way of putting it was that after wrestling his rifle back from the German, he gave him a violent push which sent him staggering, and before he could recover from his equilibrium, he disposed of him for ever, and then bolted. (Didn't they have a strange way of saying things back then LOL) Cheers - Leah

The Battle of Mons was the first major battle of World War One. Mons was a battle of movement unlike the battles that followed which involved trench warfare. German troops advancing through Belgium German troops invaded Belgium on August 3rd. British troops from the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) had crossed to mainland Europe on August 14th. The BEF was led by Sir John French and by the time the BEF had got to Belgium they were behind with their schedule. French wanted a cautious approach until he and his force met up with the French Fifth Army led by General Lanrezac. The plan was for both forces to join up at Charleroi. On August 22nd, the BEF came across cavalry patrols from the German First Army and engaged them. General French made plans to attack the German force that he assumed had to be in the region if they were sending out cavalry patrols. British intelligence warned him to be more cautious as the size of the German army in the vicinity was not known. As a result of this intelligence, French ordered his men to dig defensive positions near the Mons Canal. The commander of the German First Army, Kluck, was surprised by the proximity of the British forces. He and his army had just engaged Lanrezac in battle (the Battle of Sambre) and was pursuing the French army south. Kluck determined to take on the BEF and they first engaged the British in battle on August 23rd. French had deployed his men across a 40 kilometre front. The BEF was heavily outnumbered. The BEF had 70,000 men and 300 artillery guns whereas the German’s had 160,000 men and 600 artillery guns. Despite such overwhelming numbers, the Germans did not do well at the start of the battle. The BEF may have been referred to as a bunch of “contemptibles” by the Kaiser William II, but they were professional soldiers. The Germans believed that they were facing many British machine guns at Mons. In fact, they were infantry men firing their Lee Enfield rifles but at such a combined speed that they gave the Germans that impression. German intelligence had estimated that the BEF had 28 machine guns per battalion at Mons - whereas each battalion only had two! After his experiences of the BEF at the Battle of Mons, Kluck, after the war had finished, described the BEF as an 'incomparable army'. 'Well entrenched and completely hidden, the enemy opened a murderous fire...the casualties increased....the rushes became shorter, and finally the whole advance stopped....with bloody losses, the attack gradually came to an end.' A German account of British troop fire at Mons The XII Brandenburg Grenadiers attacking the 1st Battalion of the Royal West Kent Regiment lost 25 officers and over 500 men. The 75th Bremen Regiment lost 5 officers and 376 men in just one attack, such was the ferocity of the BEF's gunfire and their well dug defensive positions. However, by evening French realised that the German army he faced was much bigger than his army. Also, unknown to him, the French army led by Lanrezac had retreated leaving the British army more exposed. French ordered his army to retreat. Kluck did not attack this retreat as he had to deal with the casualties in his army. However, on August 26th, a British rearguard guarding the retreat of the bulk of the BEF did sustain 8,000 casualties at the Battle of Le Chateau. French wanted to withdraw his army to the coast but this was forbidden by Lord Kitchener who insisted that British stayed in contact with the French army as they retreated to the Marne River.

www.historylearningsite.co.uk A very good site.

I don't know if this helps but when you type Villeroi into Microsoft Auto Route it comes up with Villeneuve Le Roi which is on the outskirts of Paris, Could it have been a British shortening of the full name. If you can let us have his Regiment we could trace the route back from Mons. Do you have the Surrey Comet interview if not try to get it from the paper it could have more info. Keith

Leah, I may not have been clear in my description, I had in mind the standing, shooting from the shoulder,style, as the olympic skiers do.(Biathlon) in a struggle he would likely have fired from the hip, at close range........... Bob

Gosh, thanks everyone - lots of lovely info here! Keith - that's another possibility for me to think about. Only thing bothering me is that I don't think he managed to retreat into France. I think he was going the opposite direction LOL (i.e. the Regmt were retreating back but he was stuck on the other side of the bridge and ended up at that Villeroi place, then walked/cycled up to Ghent, then to Ostend) Carol - thanks for the clipping from the history site - have been on there and had a nosey around - again, lots of good info. Bob - thanks again for the input. I've just signed up with the 1914-1918 website as someone suggested earlier and they have forums on there, so have posted similar thread - you never know - there might be someone out there with an ancestor who was in the same troop/regmt as Farvy. I really appreciate all the response today - many thanks Leah

Hi Leah Just found this it could be what you are looking for, the village of Villerot is located east of Mons, its just north of two rivers or canals and if he was on the wrong bank would have been force to head North East Via Ghent & Ostend. Keith

My husband belongs to a vintage arms association. He has a Lee Enfield and I have to use both hands just to lift it. Gawd knows how they carried them all day and could fire with them. My son used it recently at a tournament and said it really kicked back and hurt his shoulder.

Leah - can't help you but the website already mentioned (1914-1918) has a forum on there - they are brilliant and helped me track down my Great Uncle - they are sooooo knowledgeable, post a message on the forum and someone will help! Good luck!