Genealogy Chat

Technically you need to have a Jewish mother to be classed as Jewish. After all, your mother knows she's your mother, your father has to assume... I agree with earlier posters that Septimus is not a Jewish name. Biblical names were however common amongst certain groups of people. My Black Country mother in law has a cousin called Mesach for example, and my Black Country uncle had the middle name of Jabez and a brother called Enoch. Agree re Phillips family. I was always told that my great grandfather was Jewish. Took about 10 minutes on the 1881 census when I first started this game to find that his father came from Lincolnshire and his father before him back to heaven knows when! However I think a lot of people would be quite happy to say that Abraham Phillips is a Jewish name. A Jewish family might deny their origins for all sorts of reasons, mostly I suspect self preservation in times of anti semitism, but if you are going to take this family as Jewish I think you might need some proof and I'd say it could be about 50/50 at the moment. Sheila

if they were practising Jews, would there not be records in the synagogues?

As I understand it, you are only Jewish if your MOTHER was Jewish, so even if her father was Jewish, that wouldn't make her Jewish. (Although the Nazis counted anybody as Jewish who had any Jewish ancestry.) Kate.

My ancestor Jabez was baptised James but was Jabez by the time he married. The family were Puritans and also had a Caleb, Obed and an Official. Gwynne

And for what its worth, I have several men named Jabez in my tree, none of whom were Jewish. Septimus definitely isn't a Jewish name. My husband's Jewish lot - none of them is called Jabez and I haven't found Jabez among the Jewish records I've been looking at. If they are buried in Abney Park cemetery, I'd say they weren't Jewish, or at least not practicing Jews. nell

Unless you have found the family marriages in synagogues etc there is no evidence that they are Jewish other than their names. Lots of 'Jewish' surnames, like Phillips, are also non-Jewish. Husband has Welsh Phillips family (father's side) in Glamorgan and Jewish Phillips family (mother's side) in London. Payne may well be an anglicised version of Chaim (though 1st I've heard of it, I always thought Chaim was anglicised to James). Equally it could be a corruption of another name or a place name. It is possible that their is Jewish blood in the family somewhere down the line, but maybe some one way back married out of the faith. Anti-semitism would be a good reason to deny Jewishness, especially if people were trying to live as Christians. nell

Thanks vicky Lin

Have you any REAL evidence they were Jewish? having lots of money & a name that could have originally been Hebrew aren't really proof. Are you saying they were Jewish, keeping their religious observations, but in a clandestine manner? Strange that they weren't buried in a Jewish cemetery then. Lots of people renounce their religion, for many different reasons. The anti-semitic feeling might have been one factor. Having a Jewish surname doesn't mean they were Jewish - could your gran be a Christian who married a Jew?

I'm not denying that the christian names are not uncommon - only one Payne Jacob in the UK, it's the Jewish denial which is the issue. Thanks anyway Lin

Hi again, If you check out the IGI you'll see that Payne was not that uncommon as a first name back to the 14th C. Gwynne

The family stories just seem to be very confusing, what with Benjamin being anti - plus being a soldier for the British and a spy for the Germans in WW1 and that the christian name Payne is the English version of Chaim plus the siblings name are not that common especially as the whole of the family have Hebrew names. Plus in the wills of the heads of the family they left substantial amounts of money and property when on the census they are described and painters and decorators and also an egg salesman. Lin

I think, if they were Jewish, there has been such a lot of anti-semitism in recent history, maybe they were protecting their own. Oswald Moseley was of course a follower of Hitler and the Nazi ideal, although he did claim to oppose anti-semitism. Liz

There was a lot of prejudice against Jews - many changed their names to avoid making it obvious. I've got a friend b. 1946 whose parents are Cohens - but he's Collins.

Do you know that they definitely were Jewish? My family were (and still are) devout Baptists and Old Testament names are commonplace in my tree. Liz

Hi, Those names are as likely to be non-conformist as Jewish. I have several of them on my tree. Gwynne

My Grandmother maiden name Jacob, always denied she was jewish when anyone asked if the surname was. Her father Benjamin, in the WW1, unfortunately fought on boths sides and was a member of the Black Shirts (Moseley) in the East End of London, but Benjamin's siblings were named Jabez, Sarah, Septimus, Ruth, Joseph, Rubamah, Ebenezer etc. These names go back to his GG Grandfather who's name was Payne Jacob translated into Hebrew Chaim. Benjamin was buried as most of the Jacob family were at Abney Cemetery in the non-comformist section. Why would a family deny their faith in the 19 and 20c? Your views would be greatly appreciated. Lin